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Another Insult

Author: Alex. Nemoianu
January 2, 2012
It has become habitual for the Romanian (cleptocratic) Patriarchate and its publications to insult periodically, directly or indirectly, the “Vatra” Episcopate and its Hierarch.

On different occasions this habit was pointed out in the pages of the “Information Bulletin” as well as in other publications. A new insult was hurled toward the “Vatra” and its Hierarch in the December 10th, 2011 issue of “Lumina” the official newspaper of the said Patriarchate. ( 10 december 2011.)

In that issue an article was published entitled “Romanian Orthodox mission in Chicago”. Under this title, intentionally chosen to spread confusion, the “Holy Nativity Church” of Chicago, Illinois, was presented.

The article abounds in  cavernous clichés, and full of cheap shots like; the church was  founded out of “yearning for the old country”, the “Church is part of Romania”(?!) and so on.  In my opinion these cheap clichés are nothing more than putrid hot air!  But the article had a purpose. Its purpose was to disseminate confusion. The author bends head over heels to flatter the parish priest and his “assistants” but says nothing about whose canonical jurisdiction the church is under and never mentions the name of its Hierarch, the Most Reverend Archbishop Nathaniel. In my opinion this is a real scandal!

It is a scandal because it has become the rule of the cleptocratic Patriarchate and its cronies to ignore, to treat as non existent and as irrelevant, the ruling Hierarch of the “Vatra”.  Obviously this is part of the cleptocratic Patriarchate’s policy of “fait accompli”; the policy of considering the subordination (or unity as some say in bad faith) of the “Vatra” to the said cleptocratic institution as a done deal.  As I have previously mentioned, this policy is consistent with the attitude of the cleptocratic Patriarchate since 1950. It is the policy of irrational hate.

However, what is really disturbing is the benevolent silence of the “Vatra”s representatives in the JDC toward such repeated, systemic insults.  These individuals (the “Vatra” representatives in the JDC), who should promote the “Vatra” interests, do not dare mention a word of protest. When they open their mouths it is to apologize and even to justify the insults hurled towards the “Vatra” and its Hierarch. (Such was the case when the memory of Archbishop Valerian was insulted in a 2011 issue of the “Altarul Banatului” and when such a representative of the “Vatra” rushed to justify it.)

Why such gross mistreatment of the “Vatra”‘ interests are tolerated is anyone’s guess. But in my opinion both those who insult the Vatra, as well as the members of the JDC that apologize for them, [auto-identify themselves] …

25 Comments to “Another Insult”

  1. Un prieten Says:

    Politica Romana in ceia ce priveste « Diaspora » sa, nu s-a schimbat cu 1990. Tot incearca Bucuresti sa ne controleze din Romania, chiar daca am plecat mii de kilometrii sa scapam de acolo, si chiar daca vorbim de mai multe generatii nascute in aceste noi tari de adoptie.

  2. Optimist Says:

    The author points out how the Romanian Patriarchate is trying to trick us with its presentation of Chicago’s Holy Nativity Church by not mentioning that it is under the canonical coverage of Archbishop Nathaniel of the Vatra Episcopate – a Diocese of the Orthodox Church of America, and NOT under the Romanian Patriarchate as intimated.

    When higher ups in Church organizations make lying Church policy what can we say? Even children know that lies of ommission are equal to lies of commission. This is unforgivable behaviour, but God will have His say, sooner or later, of this we are convinced. So should they …

  3. Tomas Says:

    That HE will. God will unite all Romanians into one Metropolinate. Those who are against…well what can I say… tough!

    Oh, once again Mr. Administrator, the largest parish in our Episcopate, what is it? I will tell you………a Romanian parish!!!!

  4. Administrator Says:

    Regarding the BOR report on one of our Chicago parishes, Optimist commented above that “When higher ups in Church organizations [BOR] make lying Church policy what can we say? Even children know that lies of omission are equal to lies of commission. This is unforgivable behaviour, but God will have His say, sooner or later, of this we are convinced. So should they …”

    Tomas, you preface your following comment with “That HE will…” What does Optimist’s comment have to do with your following statement of uniting Romanians under BOR or your other meaningless statement regarding some parish’s size today?

    Our problem is about our children’s religious future and not about your present day preferences, be they social, cultural or even religious.

  5. Anonymous Says:

    I’m sorry, but now Mr. Nemoianu is attacking things that people DID NOT say, and things people DID NOT do. What’s next? Is he going to attack people who DID NOT exist?

    I too survived communism and witnessed many people driven into paranoia. Let’s all just focus on praying for one another.

  6. Administrator Says:

    Anonymous, isn’t your comment a little like trying to defend lies of omission? Aren’t these just as much a lie as lies of commission? If so, then those who have been made responsible for negotiating with the other side on our behalf (our JDC) should defend our position when our Episcopate is unjustly attacked (by commission/ by omission or even indirectly). If not them, then who? Certainly not the Hierarchs or Chancellor who should not stoop to that level. It might be argued that it is up to all ROEA members to defend this Church, but especially those in the know, like the JDC and even our Due Diligence Committee members…

    Praying is great, but if your comment implies doing nothing else to correct injustices, then it could be argued that only praying is simply not enough. Ask those who risked their lives to uphold truth, justice and freedom.

  7. Florin Says:

    Oare sa fie dorinta de dominatie, de putere, mandria ceea ce nu lasa ca Biserica din America sa devina autocefala. Nici rusii, nici romanii, nici Patriarhia de Constantinopol nu lasa de la ea, fiecare doreste o influenta asupra acestei Biserici. Dar bine este ca se slujeste Sfanta Liturghie si in America. Iara noua nu ne revine decat sa ne rugam pentru intaistatatorii nostri ca in Hristos sa gaseasca o solutie.

  8. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    A few basics about communist tricks: One of the basic tactics employed by the communists in undermining the legally existing order was the creation of “commissions”, with a semblance and trappings of legality. The purpose of those commissions was to work toward the destruction of the legally existing order. In my opinion, in a typology of subversion, the tactics of the communist “commissions” and that of the JDC (the Joint Dialogue Commission), as per modus operandi, are not similar, they are identical. What is equally identical, again in my opinion, are the openly displayed disdain for what is legal order, what are rules, what are agreed diligence and procedures what is the experience of the past and especially for what is right. Saying otherwise would be like saying that it is OK to have, in a Republic, a state sanctioned “commission” working to install a monarchy. The purpose of the communist “commissions” (and in this case of the JDC) was to impose their will and their “ways”. In order to achieve that, they used all kind of methods, sometimes mimicking the legal order and most of the time grossly ignoring it. To the above mentioned should be added that administrative pressure, attempts to intimidate or direct threats were used by the communist “commissions” and in this case by some members of the JDC.

    Attempts to intimidate and threaten administratively, through certain members of the JDC, the signer of this entry, who is neither clergy nor an employee of the ROEA, for the opinions he expressed, for his doubts regarding the wisdom of a subordination of the “Vatra” Episcopate toward the Romanian cleptocratic Patriarchate. The case can be fully documented. (And those who are responsible may still be slapped with a case of creating a hostile working environment.)In another situation in a ‘ROEA’ parish those who expressed doubts in regard to JDC “activity” were threatened by the local priest that they risk “excommunication”?! That case can also be well documented. A respected member of the “Vatra” clergy was threatened with “firing” for his doubts about the same nefarious subordination. A very polite and formal letter, signed by tens of former leaders of ROEA and its auxiliaries, and expressing the same doubts stays unanswered for more than one year.

    The general assemblies of the “Vatra” parishes were instructed that they are not allowed to have on their agenda the discussion of “proposals” of the JDC. But in one case such a parish had the audacity to request a “vote” for the proposal” of subordination toward the Romanian Patriarchate. It seems that the interdiction of debating the JDC’ “proposals” extended also to those who have doubts in regard to the “proposals”. It goes without saying that such a “vote” would be entirely out of order. The “Vatra” Congress has no authority to vote in regard to the agreement of unity and its affiliation to the OCA. It seems that for some members of the JDC their proposals ceased to be means and became an end, an obsession. That activity should be stopped. In addition if priests, working to undermine the canonical order of the canonical body they are part of, that is the OCA, are not in a state of canonical rebellion, what should be done to be there?

  9. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    Cateva trasaturi de baza ale tacticilor comuniste: Una dintre tacticile de baza folosita de catre comunisit spre a inlatura ordinea legala existenta era crearea de “comisii”, avand superficiale trasaturi de legalitate. Scopul acestor comisii era de a lucra catre distrugerea ordinii legale existente. Dupa parerea mea, intr-o tipologie a subversiunii, tacticile “comisiilor” comuniste si cele ale JDC (”Comisia Comuna de Dialog”), in ce priveste modus operandi, sunt nu similare, sunt identice. Ceeace este la fel identic, din nou dupa parerea mea, este dispretul deschis fata de ceeace este ordinea legala, ceeace sunt regulile, ceeace sunt intelegerile privind modul de actiune si de procedura, ceeace este experienta trecutului si mai ales fata de ceeace este drept. A pretinde ca este altminterea este tot una cu a spune ca este corect ca intr-o Republica, ordinea statala sa activeze o “comisie” avand de scop instaurarea..monarhiei. Scopul “comisiilor” comuniste (si in cazul de fata al JDC) a fost de a isi impune voia si “caile”. Pentru a isi implini scopurile ei folosesc tot soiul de metode, cateodata mimand ordinea legala si cel mai adesea ingnorand-o fatis. Celor spuse trebuie adaugat ca presiuni administrative, incercari de intimidare sau amenintari directe au fost folosite de catre “comisiile” comuniste si sunt folosite de catre unii membrii ai JDC.

    Incercari de a intimida si ameninta administrativ, prin anumiti membrii JDC, au fost facute asupra semnatarului acestor randuri, care nu este nici cleric si nici angajat al ROEA, pentru parerile exprimate, pentru indoilelile sale privind cumintenia unei subordonari a Episcopiei “Vatra” catre Patriarhia cleptocrata Romana si ele pot fi documentate deplin. (Iar cei care s-au complacut in atari acte inca mai pot fi loviti cu un caz de creare a unei atmosfere de lucru ostile.) In o alta situatie, intr-o parohie a “Vetrei” cei care isi exprimau indoieli privind activitatea JDC au fost amenintati de catre parohul local cu “excomunicarea”?! Si acest caz poate fi deplin documentat. O scrisoare foarte cuvincioasa formala, semnata de zeci de fosti conducatori ai ROEA si auxiliarelor sale, si exprimand aceleasi indoieli, sta fara raspuns de mai bine de un an. Un respectat membru al clerului “Vatra” a fost amenintat cu “darea afara” pentru aceleasi indoieli.

    Adunarile generale ale parohiilor “Vatra” au primit instructiuni ca nu lee ste ingaduit sa aiba pe ordinea de zi discutarea “propunerilor” JDC de subordonare catre Patriarhia Romana. Dar intr-un caz o asemenea parohie a avut indrazneala sa sugereze votarea subordonarii catre Patriarhia Romana. Se pare ca interdictia de dezbatere se adreseaza doar celora care au indoieli privind “propunerile”. Este de la sine inteles ca un asemenea vot ar fi complet in afara ordinii parlamentare. Congresul Vatra nu are autoritate sa voteze apartenenta Episcopiei “Vatra” la Biserica Ortodoxa a Americii (OCA). Se pare ca pentru unii membrii ai JDC “propunerile” au devenit scop in sine, obsesie. Aceasta activitate trebuie sa inceteze. In afara de cele spuse, daca preoti, lucarand impotriva ordinii canonice a trupului canonic caruia ii apartin nu se afla in rebeliune canonica, ma intreb ce ar trebui facut ca sa te afli intr-o asemenea stare?

  10. Tomas Says:

    Mr. Administrator, show one parish, American Parish, with over 300 members. You can’t because it does not exist. This Episcopate is made up of 80% (if not more) Romanians. Wake up. And if these Romanians want unity and you don’t, well, tough.

  11. Administrator Says:

    Tomas, since when have you become so knowledgeable about the makeup of the Episcopate and its parishes – percentages included? May I suggest that you also look at the supporters of these parishes and the Episcopate. You will be surprised to find many names from the past - the names of the founders and their descendants who you so easily insult and threaten. Please remember that most new immigrants were welcomed in a church built, for the most part, by those you now insult and threaten. No one has the right to walk into a house built by someone else and throw out the people who welcomed them into it! You want to be in BOR – GO AHEAD, NO ONE IS STOPPING YOU, but leave us alone!

    I also note with sadness that you dare insult fellow Romanians and their descendants from here who happen to prefer staying in the local OCA in North America instead of subordinating themselves under the foreign BOR on January 24 – a special day in Romanian history. Remember, Orthodoxy demands that we be organized locally, from a geographic perspective, and not by ethnic group, which is not canonical. So, if we were all in Romania we’d all be in BOR, but we are here and must therefore be part of American Orthodoxy. The OCA is the American church that today regroups many ethnic groups, and as such is the bridge between the present ethnic churches and the American national church of the future. This is the best plan for the Orthodox Church in America and all non-Orthodox lands thought out by our predecessors who participated in creating the OCA from its beginnings.

  12. Tomas Says:

    … xoxo … am sa ma mai repet doar inca o data. Eu repet adevaruri. Tu repeti abureli.

    1,) nu tu ai construit bisericiile, ci tot romanii veniti din Romania. Asa ca tu si generatia ta nascuta aici sunt cei care ati preluat parohiile gata facute. The parishes in this Episcopate 100 years ago were built by Romanian immigrants and now 100 years later newcomers continue to build new ones.

    2.) Aceste biserici intradevar au fost si sunt preluate construite gata de imigrantii noi veniti in ultimii ani. Si au fost preluate de imigranti pentru ca copiii nascuti aici, acea generatie din care faci si tu parte, “nu le umple.” copiii americani, nascuti aici nu mai umple bisericiile noastre. Asta pentru ca parintii lor nu le-au dat educatie si nu i-au dus la biserica. Iara motivul nicidecum nu e limba si nu va fii niciodata pentru ca daca ar fi limba problema, s-ar duce la alte biserici strict pe limba engleza. Da surprize surprize……nici acolo nu merg.

    3.) Nu trebuie sa fii geniu sa vezi ce se intampla in aceasta episcopie. … xoxo … Toate misiuniile sunt romanesti - infiintate de romani. Toate cele mai noi biserici construite din ultimii 20 ani sunt facute de romani. Slujba se savarseste suta la suta numai pe limba romana. 100% out of all the newly built churches and missions in the past 20 years are Romanian communities. …

    4.) 99 la suta din preotii din aceasta episcopie sunt romani scoliti in Romania, nu SUA. Episcopia noastra (din lipsa de preoti americani scoliti aici) continua sa aduca preoti aici in continuare. 99% Romanian priests (and we continue to bring them.)

    5.) Cea mai mare parte din budgetul Epsicopiei vine din membrie [si] daca ai scoate parohiile romanesti, nu ar exista budget. Scrii mai sus despre Holy Nativity Church din Chicago. Uita-te si vezi ce mult contribuie aceasta parohie la budgetul anual al episcopiei. Si e pur romaneasca. Si nu numai aceasta parohie ci multe altele. Cele din Detroit, New York, Los Angeles etc. Toate parohii romanesti. Liturgy strictly in Romanian. Uita-te pe adresa Episcopiei si verifica daca nu stii. Nu uita ca a fii membru nu e suficient. Ci trebuie sa fii membru activ. Sunt o gramada de oameni care isi platesc membria annual dar nu merg la biserica decat din Pasti in Craciun. Asa ca nu merge sa fii membru fara sa mergi la biserica (generatia ta). Majority of Episcopate income comes from these Romanian communities.

    These are all facts and both our Bishops can confirm this. Just ask them! This Episcopate is held on its feet by Romanians, not your generation Mr. Administrator. So … be careful what you say. Nobody said you should leave. Nobody said your worthless. But your pushing it… xoxo …

    Dumnezeu vrea unitate, nu dezbinare, vrea unitatea romaniilor pe continentul american. Iar sa stii ca romanii vor acelasi lucru, de aceea se lucra spre aceasta unire. De aceea se discuta in congress. De aceea s-a format comisia JDC. Pentru ca, cu bincuvantarea ierahiilor nostri, se vrea unitate sub BOR. Si daca Dumnezeu considera aceasta unitate sa fie sub biserica mama – BOR - asa o sa fie - mai devreme sau mai tarziu. Punct.

  13. Administrator Says:

    1-Este clar ca mai multe generatii, inclusiv cei nascuti aici, au participat la construirea si intretinerea bisericiilor noastre aici. Da, primii veniti din anii 1900 au construit singuri primele biserici. Dar copii lor au participat la tot ce s-a cladit din 1930 pana in anii 1950. Cele doua grupuri, impreuna cu valul de imigranti din anii 1950, au participat la tot ce s-a cladit pana in 1990, si de atunci, toate aceste grupuri si copii lor, mai mult sau mai putin, impreuna cu cei veniti din 1990 si pana azi, au contribuit la tot ce s-a facut, refacut, si intretinut de atunci. Aici nu este opinie ci fapta. Nu aveti decat sa va uitati la listele celor care au contribuit la construirea si intretinerea bisericiilor noastre sa intelegeti ca suportul a venit dela toate aceste generatii. Bine inteles, sunt misiuni noi in locuri unde gasesti numai noi veniti. Acolo ei sunt majoritar cu donatiile. Dar unde exista orase ca New York, Los Angeles, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit gasesti parohii/misiuni ROEA care corespund la cererea locala. Acolo gasesti din toate generatii dar in diferite parohii/misiuni. Din pacate cei mai putin sunt din grupurile cele mai vechi, si aici este problema adevarata. Adica, cum facem ca sa retinem tineretul care, dupa un timp, paraseste bisericiile noastre, mai ales cele de limba romana?

    2-Este prea usor sa arunci cu noroi pe parintii si inaintasii nostri care au facut imposibulul ca noi sa avem o viata mai buna aici. Este adevarat ca nu toti, dar multi dintre ei au dus copii la Biserica si la Scoala Romana (zis Duminicala). Au facut ce au stiut mai bine, dar nu au luat in seama puterea socializarii dela scoala de toate zilele in limba engleza, unde dupa scoala se juca in engleza, unde televiziunea era permanent pe post englezesc si ziarele si radio la fel. Nimeni nu se poate opune puterii de socializare ce este cultura Americana, mai ales cei care vor sa o imbratiseaza. Deci, singura solutie este ca Biserica noastra sa devina Biserica copiilor; stilul lor, limba lor, cultura lor, etc.

    3-Argumentul tau nu raspunde la problema de viitorul copiilor imigrantilor noi veniti. Dupa ce parintii lor se vor sacrifica, cine va merge la aceste biserici? Deci, tot aici ajungem – viitorul si nu prezentul.

    4-Cum vrei tu sa faci preoti din copii nascuti aici care nu merg la bisericiile noastre, straine pentru multi dintre ei. Fa ca biserica sa fie a lor, si atunci vor ramane in ea, si preoti se vor face din sanul lor. Dar daca totul le este strain in biserica TA, facuta dupa placul TAU de acolo si nu a lor de aici, condusa in limba TA si nu a lor, etc., sa nu fi surprins ca ei nu mai calca in ea! Simplu ca buna ziua! Aici trebuie sa ajunga discutia. CARE BISERICA RASPUNDE MAI BINE LA NEVOILE COPIILOR NASCUTI IN AMERICA; OCA DE AICI, SAU BOR DE ACOLO? Raspunsul este evident pentru cei care vor sa vada…

    5-Din nou, argumentul tau ca parohiile cele mai mari de astazi in Episcopie tin slujbele in limba romana confirma numai ca este necesar sa ne gandim la nevoile copiilor nascuti in aceste parohii ca sa nu se mai piarda potentialul care ei reprezinta pentru Biserica, asa cum s-a pierdut in generatiile trecute. Nu uita si atunci, imediat dupa un val de imigratie, bisericiile pline… Deci, problema sa pune cu copii si nepotii care isi pierd nu numai limba, dar mai ales religia. Si cu asta - biserici goale peste 1-2 generatii.

    Tomas, the above responses are the facts. Please focus on solving the real problem – the religious future of our children born here. Stop trying to drive down the highway looking in the rear-view mirror. If you care about our childrens’ religious future then, our past is BOR and our future is OCA.

    Tomas, please STOP talking in God’s name. You are NOT God (thank God)! You say: “God wants unity, not discord, He wants the unity of Romanians on the American continent.” (“Dumnezeu vrea unitate, nu dezbinare, vrea unitatea romaniilor pe continentul american.”) I say we should learn from past mistakes, correct our ways and leave our children a church they can call their own. This means moving towards English, having a more open administrative policy at the parish level, adopting local habits and foregoing contradictory ones from the past, etc. Unity, of course, but under the OCA (future) and not BOR (past)!

  14. Tomas Says:

    Dumnezeu vrea unitate! (Nu vorbesc in numele Domnului!) I am not talking in Gods name! Daca Dumnezeul tau vrea dezbinare atunci inseamna ca XOXO…

  15. Administrator Says:

    Dumnezeu vrea unitate, suntem de acord! Dar, sub cine – BOR de acolo sau OCA de aici? Inca un lucru. Dumnezeu nu insulta asa cum insulti tu.

  16. Tomas Says:

    If BOR is the past, why does our Episcopate continue to bring Romanian priests to serve our churches here? Yea, that’s what I thought … BOR is our present. (My argument is valid and everyone knows it – but it doesn’t suit you. Bring your children to church and then let’s talk. For now we’re using Romanian priests schooled in BOR and we continue to bring them here. And you Mr. Administrator continue to …XOXO.) Your a XOXO… Argumentul meu este valabil si toata lumea stie - tie nu iti convine. Adu-ti copii tai la biserica si atunci mai vorbim. Deocamdata ne folosim de preoti romani scoliti in BOR si ii aducem in continuare. Si tu domnule administrator, in continu …XOXO.

  17. Administrator Says:

    Our Episcopate does not bring priests here. It is receiving priests who are leaving Romania by the dozen, much like the laity, in search of a better life. Yes, they are welcome to fill positions that would otherwise remain empty, given our poor record in retaining our childrens’ interest in our “foreign” church which leads to our lack of American-born priests. We must make “our” church “their” church if we expect them to continue in the faith of our fathers. That is why we must listen to their needs and build accordingly for the future and not for “our” present and “their” past. That is why we should remain in the OCA and not go back under BOR.

  18. Tomas Says:

    Our Episcopate recieves Romanian priests here in our Episcopate (many times we bring them here) because we have no priests here.

    Your generation produces no priests. Romanians fill our churches. Romanians fill our episcopate. Romanian priests lead our flock here in the USA. Not OCA. Not your generation. Certainly not you…

    Oh, and please stop changing my responses. Let people see who you really are!

  19. Administrator Says:

    Tomas, as previously mentioned (you really should read the responses to your previous comments) our Episcopate does not bring priests here. It receives priests who are leaving Romania by the dozen, much like the laity, in search of a better life here. Yes, they are welcome to fill positions that would otherwise remain empty, given the post-1990 influx and given our poor record in retaining our childrens’ interest in our “foreign” church, which leads to our shortage of American-born clergy.
    We must make “our” church our childrens’ church if we expect them to continue in the faith of our fathers. That is why we must listen to “their needs” and build accordingly for the future and not for “our” present and “their” past. Maybe, if we are successful in so doing, we might retain more of these lost generations born here and even have more American-born clergy. That is why we should remain in the OCA and not go back under BOR.
    As previously mentioned when your insults are too much they get edited on this website. As to the anonymity of the organizers behind the website, please refer to this website’s Introduction (home page) and Dec. 18, 2008 Comment on that topic.

  20. Tomas Says:

    I read the comments, Mr. Administrator, unfortunately … XOXO. Most of the time our Episcopate is the one who “legally” brings priests to serve our parishes in this country. Now if you want to call that “receiving” fine. But don’t fool yourself into thinking we have nothing to do with them coming here.

    And yes, we must make, “our” church, “our children’s” church. Bring them to church. There are many churches where the majority/the entire service is in English. They still don’t come. Stop using children as an excuse prove a point. OCA does not bring/doesn’t bring children to church. BOR will not bring/bring children to church. The parents are the ones who have this duty. And you know what, why don’t you, Mr. Administrator, start this by being an example!

  21. Administrator Says:

    Oh Tomas, the point being made was that proportionately, the same number of priests are wanting to come here as there are lay people. Consequently, we don’t run after them. They ask to come here of their own volition. (Who wouldn’t want to leave a Romanian church that churns out more priests than it could ever use domestically.) Of course these priests must receive canonical transfer papers (from one Bishop/jurisdiction to another) for this to occur.

    Now you say we should bring the children to an English service but where everything is done Romanian style! As parents of small children, we can bring them, but we cannot bring young adults who refuse to be part of an ethnic cult environment. Sorry, our North American - born children are more likely to want a local Orthodox Church, from here, administered by Americans who take no orders from abroad, and who administer the Church in a fashion conducive to North American norms – a Church which does not make them feel as if they are walking into an ethnic ghetto, but rather into an American- Christian Holy place. We cannot claim that the OCA is already such a place, but we can state that she can be such a Church here in North America. The BOR cannot. It is and it can be in Romania, but never here. This is why the Orthodox Church is against phyletism, and why it is meant to be local. That is why OCA is our future and BOR our past.

  22. Tomas Says:

    Well then you know what – tough. Produce American priests to fit your needs. Because it to me that’s what you want: priests that fit “your personal ideologies and needs.” That’s how protestant came about. That’s why the Catholic church has evolved so much. Because they listened to the “personal needs” of people like you and let out the true teachings of Christ. In turn the church has become a personal club. Well if that what you would like to make out of our Orthodox church. Well tough. Go somewhere else.

    And finally, if your American born children want “an American - Christian holy place” (as you say), a place where there is pure American ethnicity, well why don’t they go to those churches. There plenty of churches like that in the OCA. Plenty. I’ll tell you the answer. That is really not the problem. “Your children” are just not church oriented. You failed to teach them the values of the church. So don’t blame ethnicity for your children’s dis-orientation. Face reality.

  23. Administrator Says:

    First of all, there are many young priests from Romania who have already started adopting North American ways. They don’t necessarily “fit my personal ideologies and needs” but they are adopting North American ways we share, and in time there will be more that joins us than separates us. It is important to integrate into our society here, otherwise our children will abandon our Orthodoxy as they become Americanized. Anything else makes the Church a private Romanian club and not an open Orthodox church!

    You still don’t get it. If you continue the Romanian thing to the bitter end, you will have no one to support the wonderful churches we now have – and it will be our grandchildren who will abandon them and possibly land up believing in nothing! Our over 100 year old history in North America proves this. And this is precisely the point. This discussion should not be about our differences but about what will keep our children/ grandchildren Orthodox as they inevitably become Americanized? Isn’t it better to adapt to their evolving needs – going from Romanian parishes to American ones, so that Orthodoxy might be saved here, long term, in the process?

  24. Anonymous Says:

    Tomas, I doubt Administrator’s children are regularly attending supporting members of any of our ROEA/OCA churches. And by that I mean present almost every Sunday and active in the life of the church…

    … It seems those who are most against the unity lack the actions to back up their words…

  25. Administrator Says:

    It would be appreciated if some contributors would stop trying to personalize the debate, and instead attempt to address the issues at hand.

    As members of the same Church, we should be discussing the best way forward for all of us and not just for some of us. How can we speak of unity if we divide ourselves in the process? Clearly, debate and discussion is the way forward – not ad hominem attacks and insults. You see – unity really does start at home, in the parish, in the Episcopate. This is the Christian way.

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