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Unity Appeal

Author: † Pat. Daniel et al
February 13, 2010
icon55
APPEAL TO UNITY AND ROMANIAN DIGNITY
By the Romanian Orthodox Church (BOR) Synod, Bucharest, Feb. 11, 2010
From: www.basilica.ro - news- official translation

At the beginning of the year 2010, proclaimed by the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church as Anniversary Year of the Orthodox Creed and of Romanian Autocephaly, in the context of the 125th anniversary of the moment when the Romanian Orthodox Church became autocephalous and of the 85th anniversary of the elevation to the rank of Patriarchate, the hierarchs of the Holy Synod are reaching out and addressing a Heartfelt appeal to all Romanian Orthodox clerics and faithful abroad, who are, without blessing, in other sister Orthodox Churches or in non-canonical church structures, to restore their direct communion with their Mother Church, under the canonical jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church.The realization of this desideratum is the fulfillment of the provisions of the Bylaw for the Organization and Functioning of the Romanian Orthodox Church, which mentions that the Romanian Orthodox Church is the Church of the Romanian people and encompasses all Orthodox Christians in Romania and the Romanian Orthodox Christians abroad (article 5), and the canonical and pastoral organization of the Romanian Orthodox faithful outside Romania is ensured by the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church (article 8). This principle is in full accordance with the decision of the Panorthodox Preconciliar Conference of Chambésy-Switzerland (June 6-13, 2009), which specifies that each autocephalous Church has the right to shepherd its own diaspora.

The above-mentioned principles are expressing the duty of the Romanian Orthodox Church and are based upon the 16th Canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council (325), which contains the principle that no diocese is allowed to receive under its jurisdiction Orthodox clerics and faithful, without the blessing of the Church (diocese) to which they belong.

To this end, we are mentioning that the process of returning of the clergy and faithful of different nationalities to their Mother Churches (such as in the Moscow Patriarchate and the Serbian Patriarchate) has already started for a long time and has shown that, through shared responsibility and ethnic Orthodox solidarity, the conjunctural historical feuds, based on past political motives, can be overcome.

Now, when 20 years have passed since the fall of the Communist regime in Eastern Europe, when Romania is a member of the European Union and of NATO and in the context of an unprecedented activity of the Romanian Orthodox Church abroad, through the reorganization and foundation of numerous dioceses across the world, we think that there are no more real reasons to reject the call of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church to unity and Romanian Orthodox communion.

We are confident that this attitude of Romanian Orthodox resurrection and reconciliation will consolidate and intensify the pastoral-missionary, social-philanthropic and cultural-educational ministry of the Romanian Orthodox Church everywhere, strengthening at the same time the Romanian Orthodox dignity, through the liberation of some Romanian Orthodox from considering themselves ’searchers of canonical shadows’ among strangers.

We are regretting that, for several reasons, some of our Romanian Orthodox brothers have sought other Orthodox jurisdictions, during Communism, but what was understandable in the past has become unreasonable and regrettable in present times, amounting to estrangement of Romanians from one another, up to their church division.

Being confident that our appeal to unity and Romanian Orthodox dignity will be received with joy and responsibility, as a desire for communion and brotherly cooperation, we are sharing with everyone our utmost respect and fatherly blessing.

THE PRESIDENT OF THE HOLY SYNOD OF THE ROMANIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH,
† D A N I E L
Archbishop of Bucharest,, Metropolitan of Muntenia and Dobrudgea, Locum Tenens of the Throne of Caesarea Cappadocia and
Patriarch of the Romanian Orthodox Church

† Teofan
Archbishop of Iasi and Metropolitan of Moldavia and Bukovina

† Laurenţiu
Archbishop of Sibiu and Metropolitan Transylvania

† Bartolomeu
Archbishop of Vad, Feleac and Cluj
Metropolitan of Cluj, Alba, Crisana and Maramures

† Irineu
Archbishop of Craiova and Metropolitan of Oltenia

† Nicolae
Archbishop of Timisoara and Metropolitan of Banat

† Petru
Archbishop Chisinau, Metropolitan of Basarabia and Exarch of the Plains

† Serafim
Romanian Orthodox Archbishop of Germany, Austria and Luxembourg
and Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan of Germany, Central and Northern Europe

† Iosif
Romanian Orthodox Archbishop of Western Europe and
Romanian Orthodox Metropolitan of Western and Southern Europe

† Nifon
Honorary Metropolitan, Archbishop of Targoviste and Patriarchal Exarch

† Teodosie
Archbishop of Tomis

† Pimen
Archbishop of Suceava and Radauti

† Andrei
Archbishop of Alba Iulia

† Gherasim
Archbishop of Ramnic

† Eftimie
Archbishop of Roman and Bacau

† Epifanie
Archbishop of Buzau and Vrancea

† Calinic
Archbishop of Arges and Muscel

† Casian
Archbishop of Lower Danube

† Timotei
Archbishop of Arad

† Nicolae
Romanian Orthodox Archbishop of the Americas

† Justinian
Honorary Archbishop, Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Maramures and Satu Mare

† Ioan
Honorary Archbishop, Bishop of Covasna and Harghita

† Corneliu
Bishop of Husi

† Lucian
Bishop of Caransebes

† Sofronie
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Oradea

† Nicodim
Bishop of Severin and Strehaia

† Vincenţiu
Bishop of Slobozia and Calarasi

† Galaction
Bishop of Alexandria and Teleorman

† Ambrozie
Bishop of Giurgiu

† Sebastian
Bishop of Slatina Romanati

† Visarion
Bishop of Tulcea

† Petroniu
Bishop of Salaj

† Gurie
Bishop of Deva and Hunedoara

† Daniil
Locum Tenens (Administrator) of
the Diocese of Dacia Felix

† Siluan
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Hungary

† Siluan
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Italy

† Timotei
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Spain and Portugal

† Macarie
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Northern Europe

† Mihail
Romanian Orthodox Bishop of Australia and New Zealand

† Ciprian Câmpineanul
Patriarchal Vicar Bishop

† Varlaam Ploieşteanul
Patriarchal Vicar Bishop

† Varsanufie Prahoveanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Bucharest Archdiocese

† Calinic Botoşăneanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Iasi Archdiocese

† Andrei Făgărăşeanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Sibiu Archdiocese

† Irineu Bistriţeanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Vad, Feleac and Cluj

† Vasile Someşeanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Archdiocese of Vad, Feleac and Cluj

† Paisie Lugojeanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Timisoara Archdiocese

† Emilian Lovişteanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Ramnic Archdiocese

† Ioachim Băcăuanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Roman and Bacau Archdiocese

† Sofian Braşoveanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese
of Germany, Austria and Luxembourg

† Marc Nemţeanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese
of Western Europe

† Ioan Casian de Vicina
Auxiliary Bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese
of the Americas

† Iustin Sigheteanul
Auxiliary Bishop of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese
of Maramures and Satu Mare

THE PRESS OFFICE OF THE ROMANIAN PATRIARCHATE

40 Comments to “Unity Appeal”


  1. Administrator Says:

    The Patriarchate’s assertions are startling, self-serving, and political in scope, having added nothing new to BOR’s over-used arguments of uniting all Orthodox of Romanian descent, worldwide, under the Mother Church of Romania (BOR) and this based on the un-orthodox concept of phyletism. The Orthodox Church has denounced this structure in favour of the territorial or local church organisation. BOR attempts to convince us with a definition of “Diaspora” that does not apply to the many faithful they are attempting to control. When people leave a country in order to adopt a new one and start a new life, the notion of Diaspora quickly dissipates. However, Bucharest does this without any regard for what nationality these faithful now have, where they are born, what passport they hold, what armed forces they served in, or even what nationality they consider themselves to be.

    BOR cites its own newly updated and self-serving Constitution to justify its plan of global control of its Diaspora and proceeds to base its argument on the 16th Canon of the First Ecumenical Council of 325 which refers to clergy not having the right to leave a church and be accepted in another without the permission of the first. This is stretched logic since Bucharest argues that this applies to those clerics who left Communist-controlled churches and developed new canonical links in the Western countries they immigrated to. In this context, the real question is ‘who abandoned the Church? Was it the uncompromised clerics who refused to be subjected to a Church controlled by the ungodly Communist Romanian Government and their BOR underlings, or was it the weak clerics who signed a pact with these enemies of the faith? How dare these present day Hierarchs, many of whom collaborated with the Romanian Secret Police, the Securitate, claim that the anti-Communist clerics abandoned the Church when it was really the reverse? Should we not conclude that it is they who abandoned the Church by handing it over to the godless communists? Who abandoned the Church, the collaborators like Patriarch Justinian Marina and Archbishop Victorin Ursache or those who fought against ungodly tyranny like Metropolitan Visarion Puiu and Archbishop Valerian Trifa? Please!

    As well, how dare these foreign Orthodox prelates attempt to use false dogma to gain power over something they call THEIR Romanian Diaspora? Many of us born here of Romanian descent, with 2-5 generation-old roots in these western and democratic countries, consider ourselves to be American, Canadian, French, etc.; Orthodox Christians. We are not anyone’s Diaspora. Those of us who became Orthodox and married someone here of Romanian descent are not part of anyone’s Diaspora. Those of us who attend these churches and are of different ethnic descent and chose to convert to Orthodoxy are not part of any Romanian Diaspora. If anything, it can be said that for some of us, our parents chose Exile over living under Communism, and we were taught by them to create our own independent religious institutions here, which we have in the ROEA-OCA.

    We are Orthodox Christians and although some of us no longer speak Romanian, and have not ever been to Romania, many of us have retained good thoughts about our ethnic heritage from our parents; but do not push us too far. Romania has no jurisdiction over us. Many of us will not be subject to a foreign church run by the Romanian government which pays BOR clerics and thus controls the church. Many of us choose to remain loyal to our country, our ROEA and our OCA, and will not accept any foreign religious link that jeopardises our loyalty to either the USA or Canada.

    This also holds true for some first generation Romanians who immigrated here to start a new life, adopting a new country, but choosing to retain the ancestral Orthodox faith. They left Romania to start afresh; not to be subjected to Romanian rule no matter where they live and in spite of their choices. This Romanian Diaspora concept is old news and all one-sided, and our individual rights in democratic societies preclude any such foreign control. Sorry. Do not insult us by trying to sell us an untenable bill of goods.

    We are citizens of our own countries and have seen what happens when our politics differ. WWII and the Korean War have proven these differences. No, we cannot be subjected to foreign political rule. Metropolitan Visarion Puiu first said this, then Archbishops Valerian Trifa and Teofil Ionescu, not to mention the multitude of Priests who ran their communities objecting to any rule from Romania. Over time, these communities became entrenched locally and today many have very little to do with Romania, having become first and foremost, local American Orthodox communities in the OCA. In the next 25 years, and if our ROEA stays in the OCA, most of our newer immigrant parishes will also have evolved into becoming local American Orthodox communities. If they instead choose the ROAA-BOR they will become ghettoized and will probably have disappeared 25 years from now. Our history in North America proves this pattern.

    As previously mentioned on this site, “pan-Orthodox meetings organized by the Ecumenical Patriarchate at their institute in Chambesy, Switzerland have topics of common interest for all Eastern Orthodox Churches, including the uncanonical situation of having so many overlapping jurisdictions in North America and elsewhere in non-Orthodox lands. Many topics are being discussed by Orthodox clergy and theologians in these meetings, but nothing concrete will come of this until an Ecumenical Synod of the Orthodox Church will be convened to review all the discussions and recommendations and where a plan of action might emerge. What will come of all this and when? No one knows, starting with the Ecumenical Patriarch.” How dare Bucharest attempt to claim that what is being discussed at Chambesy is already the rule, and this without the next Ecumenical Synod to accept, ratify, change, etc. any and all Chambesy recommendations made to it? This is silliness.

    Bucharest, like all other foreign Patriarchates will have to get used to the idea that a North American Orthodox Church does exist and that we want to become a truly local church in accordance with Orthodox canonical rule. Any attempt to grow the existing multi-jurisdictional mess by attempting to force us into foreign arms will be opposed as non-Orthodox. The OCA is the only local church here and staying in the OCA means forging ahead. As previously asked here: “will the eventual American Orthodox Patriarchate be the OCA expanded, or will it be a new church structure is anyone’s guess.”


  2. Fr. C. Calin Says:

    Look Out!! Bucharest is claiming the Vatra!


  3. Ialmisry Says:

    as posted on orthodoxchristianity.net, ‘Forum’ section

    Definitely nothing good, and too little too late. As Met. Jonah pointed out, the Autocephaly model and the Phanar model are the only viable ones (I’m being generous with the latter), alluding to the ethnarch models such as being promoting here as not viable.

    The only remaining quesion is will the Romanian Patriarch join up with the Greek primates, in the hopes wrangling a phyletist deal. As this is nothing but phyletism, plain and simple, in particular the claim “The above-mentioned principles are expressing the duty of the Romanian Orthodox Church and are based upon the 16th Canon of the 1st Ecumenical Council (325), which contains the principle that no diocese is allowed to receive under its jurisdiction Orthodox clerics and faithful, without the blessing of the Church (diocese) to which they belong,” which is a direct aim at the OCA.


  4. Viorel Says:

    Dece sa amesteca Patriarhul Romaniei in problemele noastre aici in America de Nord? Nu are destule probleme cu Biserica lui din Romania? Aici Episcopia noastra Vatra este canonic supusa OCA-ului, Biserica locala, in America de Nord.


  5. PetertheAleut Says:

    as posted on orthodoxchristianity.net, ‘Forum’ section

    Regardless of whether the OCA or any other jurisdiction outside of Romania is qualified to oversee the Romanian Orthodox faithful in the “Diaspora”, I still find quite disturbing the fact that these ideas of “Diaspora” and of ethnicity as the founding principle of Orthodox jurisdiction appear to still have such a strong hold on the thinking of Old World Romanian hierarchs. I hope I’m wrong in my assessment.


  6. Matei Says:

    Cu ce drept anunta Bucurestiul ca are o Diaspora aici? Noi nu suntem Diaspora nimanui. Am plecat din Romania sa incepem din nou in alta tara. Privim inainte sin u in spate.

    BOR in Romania si OCA aici in America. Nu se poate mai simplu.


  7. Second Chance Says:

    as posted on orthodoxchristianity.net, ‘Forum’ section

    I hope that the rest of the Old World churches do not join a shark feeding frenzy in emulating the Romanian Patriarchate’s appallingly nationalistic appeal. Interestingly, even the EP does not claim jurisdiction on purely ethnic terms, but on a novel interpretation of Canon 28…


  8. Fr. David Hudson Says:

    This is an unfortunate English translation. It confuses much of the nuance of the original. (Will they ever learn to have their official translations corrected by a native English speaker?) Haste makes waste.

    Well, the gauntlet has clearly been thrown down. If this is indeed the intention of Chambesy, to regather all the diasporas under their mother churches, then the choice seems clear:
    -those who feel they are part of the Romanian diaspora, unite under Bucharest;
    -those who feel they are now Americans or Canadians, merge into the mainstream of the OCA.

    There will never be peace as long as there are two Romanian Orthodox jurisdictions in North America.


  9. Administrator Says:

    Although it is not very well done, what is important is that the English translation conveys the Romanian message in form and content. A more pushy and direct appeal has yet to be written. In our estimation, this is not an appeal to the heart, but rather it says: ‘you belong to us’ so ‘cease and desist’. ‘Our rules say so’!

    We do believe that as long as there is a political value to having a Romanian political platform in North America that can channel Romanian sentiment in North America, there will be no peace unless we cave in to their demands. Is that a good reason to do it? We think not and nor did our parents.


  10. Constantin Ardeleanu Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    With all due respect Father [Hudson], those who want to be with BOR already have an option, they should have joined churches under the already existing BOR jurisdiction. If you don’t want to be a part of OCA, don’t be part of ROEA. Seems simple to me.


  11. Mark Stokoe Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    The [above] text was signed by the Patriarch, members of the Synod, and the bishops of the Romanian Patriarchate. The appeal raises the question: is the OCA viewed by the Romanian Patriarchate as a “sister Orthodox Church”, a “non-canonical church structure”, or simply as “strangers” - a “canonical shadow” among which the OCA Romanians have been “searching”?


  12. Keith Massey Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    I was waiting for the other shoe to drop after the Panorthodox Preconciliar Conference of Chambésy-Switzerland (June 6-13, 2009). Moscow and Bucharest had to believe they would get something out of those rules of order. And here it comes. My assumption is that Moscow’s approval of these principles had more to do with their interest in the Ukraine than North America. But ideas have consequences.

    Now, as it currently stands, this plea, citing canonical principles, still has no teeth in it. I mean, my wife is a Romanian who is a member of a parish of the Moscow Patriarchate. There’s no Romanian church anywhere near us, so she’s not even willfully avoiding Romanian unity.

    This statement from Bucharest is fully in line with what Chambésy envisioned. But this current statement does seem to be the first example of a Church citing of those principles as if they were already in force. As such, it will be fascinating to see if this is but the first of many proclamations by patriarchs aimed at redefining the lines of jurisdiction.

    You are quite right, Mark, to see through to the ultimate question at stake here. Under the system described in June, Moscow’s own Tomos of Autocephaly for the OCA was not done licitly. It has seemed bizarre to me that this has gained so little attention.

    Romanians in the OCA who do not want to be under BOR jurisdiction could claim that this is a matter really between Bucharest and Moscow. Unless Moscow is really willing to repudiate their past actions, then the OCA remains what Moscow has claimed–the Autocephalous Orthodox Church in North America. In which case, the Romanians here are not in diaspora at all.

    (Editor’s note: Bingo, Keith. Chambesy claims to govern the diaspora - fine. It’s pretty dicey ecclesiology, defining church membership according to nationality, but hey, it’s their kamalavka, not mine, and they will have to answer for it to the Lord. Fortunately, the OCA will not. The fact is that the OCA is not in diaspora, never has been, and hopefully never will be. So Chambesy’s ecclesiology does not apply to us, and its diplomatically achieved pecking order for who sits where is meaningless. We, unlike the Greek, Antiochians, and everybody else (who just admitted publicly to North American they are self-consciously in diaspora) are at home here in North America. Some of us have only been here 5 years, some 50 years, some 100, some 250 years, others members of the OCA for the last 10,000 or so. We aren’t going anyplace, and don’t look backwards to anywhere. So, if this means we sit at the last place in the Chambesy-inspired Episcopal Conference, fine.( I think it was the Lord who said the last shall be first…?) All in all it just means we will be doing homeland mission, while they are still doing foreign mission. Everytime that Assembly meets it meets as foreigners overseeing a diaspora, by their own defination - nothing more. )


  13. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    The Romanians are only doing what the Russians & Greeks are all trying to do. They are trying to regain control on territory and churches which “canonically,” DOES NOT BELONG TO THEM! I don’t know how many times we have to point out that a “DIASPORA” does not exist in North America. The Orthodox people here belong to no one else only their own local churches under their own local bishops. Canonically, Romania, Greece, Istanbul, Serbia, Russia have NO canonical authority over North America. The “old country” patriarchs are trying to steal property and churches which isn’t theirs. Furthermore, their actions are TOTALLY NON-CANONICAL!!!! American Orthodox of whatever national extraction should tell these foreign bishops to obey Orthodox canon law and mind their own churches!


  14. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    “Unless Moscow is really willing to repudiate their past actions…” There’s the million dollar question. Personally, I think the announcement will come this year. But we shall see.

    (ocanews.org editor’s note: There is no indication that Moscow will ” repudiate its past actions”, for to do so would open pandora’s box, so to speak, both now and in the future. Rather, they will continue to assert what all the old patriarchates have agreed to assert: they each have universal jurisdiction over their diaspora(s), of which the OCA is no longer a part - and less and less so with each passing year.)


  15. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    Exactly WHY do American Orthodox people want to place themselves and their churches under foreign bishops? WHY? The Orthodox Canons are clear that “local bishops rule local churches.” They don’t report to foreign bishops. Why are all the “old country” Patriarchs trying to re-write Orthodox canon law? At any episcopal assembly, the local bishops of North America must tell the foreign bishops to obey canon law and mind their own crumbling churches. There is NO DIASPORA; this is a misnomer and any church rule built on this FALSE concept is also FALSE!


  16. Gregory Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    “Jesus wept” (John 11:35). So now another local church claims “universalism jurisdiction” on the basis of ethnic identity, combining thus papalism and phyletism at one heretical fell swoop. And what is missing from this statement from the Church of Romania? Any mention of Jesus Christ. Not even once.

    When will the bulk of contemporary Orthodox Christians acknowledge that “there is no permanent city [read: homeland] for us here on earth; we are looking for the city which is to come” (Hebrews 13:14)? And that the purpose of the Church, as the body of Christ, is not to safeguard, idolize and magnify “[insert favorite ethnic moniker] dignity,” but to embody his saving presence, good news and grace actively through the medium of whatever country, society or culture in which she finds herself, embracing all in one place, regardless of racial, ethnic or linguistic roots? Until we do so, we are not fulfilling our God-given vocation or mission, and we cannot realistically expect him to be pleased with us. “Children, keep yourselves away from idols.” (1 John 5:21).


  17. Keith Massey Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    The question of defining church membership according to nationality didn’t seem to affect me. After all, I’m an American, chrismated into Orthodoxy at an OCA parish. But I just got off the phone with my MP priest who pointed out that my subsequent marriage to a Romanian Orthodox in Romania likely gives the BOR a claim over me. So this just got much more interesting…

    ocanews.org editor’s note: ROTF! Apparently, you’ve been diasporized! Oh, what tangeled webs we weave, when Churches decide to practice “nationality”….”)


  18. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    The entire North American church problem was solved in 1970 with the creation of the only canonical, autocephalous Orthodox Church in North America, the OCA. From day one, the Pat. of Istanbul has been fighting against this canonical entity and looking for ways to abolish it. And now, 40 years later, Istanbul feels it can establish the old world patriarchs as controlling entities over North America by using PHYLETISM. It was condemned at the Holy and Great pan-Orthodox Synod in Constantinople on the 10th of September 1872 to qualify “phyletist (religious) nationalism,” which was condemned as a modern ecclesial heresy: the Church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race.

    So, people should ask, why would Istanbul wish to travel down a road of heresy? Do they really think the people of North America will sit and watch heretical acts take place trying to steal churches and authority in North America?


  19. Fr. Patrick Reardon Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    Come on, people! In our Antiochian parish here in Chicago, the largest “ethnic group” (those born abroad) is made up of Romanian immigrants. They fit in here perfectly, and we are delighted to have them.

    Thirty minutes ago I received phone call from the member of a local Romanian parish, who asked me to hear the Confessions of his children. They speak only English, and their priest speaks only Romanian. To read this Statement from the Patriarchate of Romania, one would think Bucharest is the site of a lunar landing.


  20. Dean Calvert Says:

    as posted on orthodoxdetroit.com, ‘Discussion Forum’ section

    … Interesting language, to be sure.

    Proof certain that the Greeks in Istanbul do not have a monopoly on maniacal megalomania. You can’t trust any of these Old World patriarchates …

    … my singular focus, from the beginning, has been “locally elected bishops, sitting in synod.”

    Have never wavered from that…and it would make all of these Old World statements noise..which is what they are…


  21. Second Chance Says:

    as posted on orthodoxchristianity.net, ‘Forum’ section

    … Now, many Romanians, Albanians, Bulgarians, and Lebanese & Syrians found a home in the Metropolia, later the OCA, without being forced to become Russians. They were even accorded special ethnic “dioceses” so that they could continue to speak in their national languages, have their own ethnic festivals, and even liturgical peculiarities. As the first wave of immigrants begat second, third, fourth, etc. generations, they intermarried, many left the Church, and those who stayed wished services to be held in English. Some of them were vilified for choosing their faith over their ethnicity. My point is that many Romanians, Bulgarians, Albanians, Lebanese and Syrians, etc, see themselves as citizens of one of the three countries in North America–they are no longer members of the diaspora. In a roundabout way The Romanian Holy Synod acknowledges this by appealing to Romanian ethnic pride (”Romanian dignity”) and claiming that the Romanian Church is better for Romanians than any other Orthodox Church.

    I am sorry my friend, I do not see much redeeming quality in this effort. On the other hand, I pray that any further divisions that may occur in North American Romanian communities are peaceful and amicable.


  22. Costel Says:

    Am plecat din Romania sa incepem o viata noua aici, si nu sa fim supusi din nou Bucurestiului. Aici este alta tara, alt teritoriu, alta Biserica, adica Episcopia noastra face parte din Biserica Ortodoxa Americana asa cum se cade in ortodoxie. Ca Episcopii din Romania vor sa ne controleze pe noi si aici in tara noastra de adoptie este o aberatie! Sa le fie rusine!


  23. Orual Says:

    as posted on orthodoxchristianity.net, ‘Forum’ section

    This is appalling. I don’t think there should be two Romanian jurisdictions, but the Patriarchate should not be claiming jurisdiction over people who don’t live in their canonical territory, just because they happen to be Romanian. This is essentially phyletism, because their argument only makes sense if local Orthodox churches are based around ethnic groups rather than nation-states/geographic locations.


  24. MWP Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Romanians, Russians and the News’

    The old world patriarchs are not credible in their quests to ruin the Orthodox Churches the new worlds. Mistake not. Ruination is collateral of their goals and they must know it. How could they not? It is a scorched earth strategy to glean what’s left over after they create chaos. But some of the churches in America are also at fault by continuing to receive immigrant clergy as the norm rather than as the exception. Second, third and fourth generation hyphenated-Americans often readily fold to the nostalgic and often petty demands of immigrant laity, sometimes because their own houses are not in order and their mission is unclear. The hierarchs of the old world have no interest in shepherding an American flock but rather only those whom will take whatever they choose to dole out. Would they not try to morph the character of our churches into little more than filling stations where the faithful may receive only the occasional sacrament and cabbage rolls and palinka? Mistake not also that the agendas of the more seemingly benign patriarchates. They won’t ever let go of their own volition. The churches in the new worlds need to decide to grow up and move away from them and not to model after them. The patriarchal structures that they maintain badly need reform. We ought not to jump to establish our own thrones on a pinnacle.

    It is in the best tradition of our Christian martyrs to witness and testify to the truth and to oppose evil whatever the source and at whatever the cost to death. We need to be careful that we don’t give in and that we don’t participate in the chaos-making. We would do well to make the beatitudes to heart and apply them in the journeys of our lives.


  25. Anita Constant Says:

    With all due respect, the Romanian Orthodox Church of Romania is still under the laws of Romania, which have proven time and again to be unenforceable. Romania lacks the rule of law. This is preventing Romania from progressing economically and socially. To [witness] the alleged sale of the priesthood by your own Bishop with no apparent consequence… [with no penalty at all?]

    We in America do not take these issues lightly. We respect our Romanian heritage, we love our church, we want it to stay Romanian/American.

    Anita Constant,
    American of Romanian descent.


  26. Q Says:

    [This is] something posted recently to OCA news which may clarify the situation as well:

    http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles-2009/Alexis-A-Letter-To-The-Ecumenical-Patriarch-Concerning-The-Situation-Of-The-Diaspora.php


  27. Toma Says:

    1)Very interesting, most of comments on this site are all against BOR, all against unification under BOR. Why is that? Can you say: one sided discussion? Everything on this site is controlled by the adminitrator. And he refuses to post arguments for unification under BOR, so that he brainwashes the people that: “there are no pro-arguments.”

    2)Toate pana la un punct domnule. Si crestinii are fost persecutati in primele veacuri timp ce au fost o minoritate in societate. Pe timp ce sau inmultit, astel deveniind “o majoritate” si persecutiile (in mare parte) sau oprit, si crestinismul a devenit religia oficiala a imperiului roman. Acelasi lucru si cu episcopia noastra. In momentul actual, sunt peste 70 la suta romani de generatia intaia (romani noi veniti din Romania). Cei de generatia a doua/treia sau imprastiat, cat si copii lor in toata tara, nemaivenind la biserica, nemaifacand parte din AROY etc. Cine au ramas? Romani de generatia intaia! Ei umple bisericiile si copii lor fac parte din AROY. Este o realitate domnule administrator. Romanii (majoritari) vor sa se uneasca sub BOR. Preotii (majoritatea) vor sa se uneasca sub BOR. Dumneata nu vei putea oprii dorinta aceasta niciodata. Orice ai face. Nu suntem rusi, nici greci si antiohieni. Suntem majoritatea de nationalitate romana care traim in America. Cu cat accepti, mai devreme, toate acestea, cu atat e mai bine pentru dumneavoastra.

    3)Toti romanii vor sa fie uniti intr-o singura mitropoilie pe teritoriul American si Canadian. Dumneata, ca solutie, ceri ca toti din acesti romani sa se uneasca sub rusi - sub OCA? Este absurd, pe timp ce toti sunt de nationalitate romana. Mai spui, “daca nu va place mergeti la episcopia ceallata! Dumneata stii ce vorbesti? Daca s-ar face aceasta episcopia noastra ar ramane cu doar o mana de biserici! S-ar rupe in doua. Deci, asa cum au facut grecii, sarbii, antiohienii, bulgarii, ukrainienii etc., asa vrem si noi romanii sa facem. Sa ne unim intr-o singura mitropolie, sub BOR.


  28. Admininsrator Says:

    1)Toma, if you have ANY argument for unity under BOR, other than the overused ethnic one, we will be happy to post it here. Stop claiming your lie that we refuse to post your arguments for unity under BOR. HOW CAN WE POST SOMETHING WE HAVE NOT EVER RECEIVED? However, we are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. (sic) “What you sent us got lost in cyberspace.” In this case, send us your Orthodox argument for abandoning the OCA and uniting under BOR one more time and we will surely post it.

    2)Toma, de ce vorbesti de persecutiile din primele veacuri crestine? Ce are de a face cu Episcopia noastra unde spui, fara nici o dovada ca “70 la suta sunt de generatie intaia” sau ca “Preotii (majoritatea) vor sa se uneasca sub BOR”? Atunci, de ce nu au ales ROAA-BOR in loc de ROEA-OCA, cand au venit in America? Daca tragi concluzii bazate pe ce prezint aici, atunci dai dreptate celor care vor OCA si nu BOR. Mai mult, tinerii dupa prima generatie, nu vor prea mult Romanism si nu vor cu Romania fiindca ei devin integrati aici – in America. Ei vor o Biserica de aici - OCA, si nu una de acolo – BOR. Nu vezi ca argumentul tau respinge copiii primei generatii, asa cum s-a mai intamplat in istoria noastra de aici?

    3) Toma, cum indraznesti sa afirmi ca OCA inseamna rusi? Cum indraznesti sa spui ca noi toti din ROEA-OCA suntem de nationalitate romana, cand multi suntem canadieni si americani? Cine a vrut sub ROAA-BOR a mers déjà acolo. Cei din ROEA-OCA care vor ROAA pot merge oricand, dar numai dupa ce raspund la intrebarea: “ce ati cautat aici in ROEA-OCA pana acum daca ati crezut ca este mai bine in ROAA-BOR? Ce interes ati avut sa faceti dezbinare la noi?” N-ai grija Toma, biserica noastra, ca oricare institutie mai are nevoie de curatenie din cand in cand. Si dupa ce s-a scuturat praful de voi, atunci Episcopia noastra va continua drumul sau trasat de IPS Valerian si va contribui la dezvoltarea ortodoxiei pe acest continent nord-american. Ai sa vezi, in viitor, Romanii din ROEA vor fi vazuti ca grupul etnic care a devenit American, pastrand dreapta credinta in contextul American, intelegand adevaratul sens al ortodoxiei locale prin alipirea facuta din 1970 la Biserica Ortodoxa Americana - OCA.


  29. Toma Says:

    1)What do you propose we do? Don’t you see that we are not producing any American Born priests?

    2)There is no such thing as “independence” in orthodoxy. You cannont simply be an independant church. This is not protestantism! You cannot simply cut off ties with all the orthodox churches outside the borders of the u.s just because “you want independance.” that is not how orthodoxy works. And doing that will lead to dictatorship! … Cutting off a tie with all the world churches will not solve the problem, but will make things worse. This is certainly not the answer.

    3)One thing should be said. Every member of this episcopate, especially converts, need to understand that they have entered a “romanian episcopate,” just as the title says: the Romanian Episcopate of America (it doesn’t even say the romanian-american episcopate). With this said, those who entered, knew from the start that this episcopate will always have ties to Romania and the romanian culture, regardless if we are part of BOR or not, because the vast majority are newcomers, the majority of people filling churches are “romanian newcomers!” The largest churches in our episcopate are: Romanian churches. These, sir, are facts, just check with the Episcopate, and look at the statistics.

    4)It’s been said that the arguments for unification under BOR are mostly enthnocentric. I have included many types of arguments, many times, but the administrator of this site, refuses to post them.

    5)One thing is certain sir. Romanians in the U.S. need to unite and be one, under one Metropolinate, under one Metropolitan! To simply say “the other episcopate should come under OCA” is absurd - to ask of a Romanian majority (in both Episcopates) to unite under OCA simply because “that is what the minority of 2nd generation Americans want!”

    6)The children of the 3rd generation Romanians do not even come to church! And you constantly use the argument, that staying under OCA is “for our childrens future? Our childrens future starts at home! Wheather or not we remain with the OCA will not bring the children back to church. In turn, Romanian unification under one metropoliinate will give a sense of unity to our children. They will stop growing up in a divided church, like they are now! Nobody is saying to take out the english language from the services. Nobody is saying to kick out the 2nd genration Americans or Americans.

    7)The idea is to unite under one Metropolinate (administered here in the U.S not from romania) but under the spiritual giudance of BOR. “spiritual guidance does not mean administrative athority. Administrative authoriity belongs solely to the ruling hierarch (which would be our metropolitan). That is what the canons refer to when they speak of the word “territorial.” It is a norm of orthodoxy which everyone needs to understand. There is no such thing as a fully autonomous church……where a church can do whatever it pleases! We all want a future. We all want prosperity. But this will never be achieved as long as Romanians are divided in two episcopates throughout the U.S and Canada.


  30. Admininsrator Says:

    1)Toma, what is your problem? Our Episcopate now has more priests than parishes/missions in which they can operate. It has even become silly in some places, where there are 1-2 priests attached to a mission that can barely pay its own part-time priest. We even open up missions in some cities to satisfy priests who complain loud enough that they have no altar of their own, and that is the only justification for opening up a new mission. No thought is given to the fact that a new mission can help weaken existing church communities in the same geographic area. Our Episcopate even has examples of 7 missions and 1 parish for 11 priests, all in 1 city, with all the missions suffering financially, and where only the parish priest at the single ROEA parish in the city is a full time priest, the others either working in other fields, unemployed, retired or on welfare. That city should probably have no more than the 1 central parish and 3 suburban missions for all 4 to flourish, with at most 5 priests in all. More Priests? We already have too many!

    2)Toma, what is your problem? No one is talking about an “independent” church, other than what is meant by an autocephalous church in Orthodoxy. No one wants to cut off canonical ties with other canonical Orthodox churches. The only thing being said in this regard is that our Vatra Episcopate, the ROEA, is canonically under the jurisdiction of the autocephalous OCA and as such, has no justifiable reason to leave its canonical and territorial North American home to subjugate itself to foreign BOR rule, particularly since the OCA is in communion with all canonical Orthodox Churches worldwide.

    3)Toma, what is your problem? All of us are proud of our Romanian heritage, but we all live here and over time almost all of us become American and Canadian, and as new generations are born here, their nationality becomes American and Canadian. Read our history. Talk to those born here. Listen to your children and grandchildren born here. See what they want: a)the local American OCA or b) the foreign BOR reporting to a foreign government? A respected cleric once said that the Church is a living organism and as such it evolves and adapts itself to its surroundings. The future of our Church is here, as part of the local OCA, and we are attempting to adapt it to our new local conditions. But if we attempt to freeze it in time by going back under BOR we will surely destroy any possibility of contributing to an American Orthodox Church. The question really is this simple, what do we choose: a) the future in the OCA or b) the past in BOR?

    4)Toma, what is your problem? As previously mentioned: HOW CAN WE POST SOMETHING WE HAVE NOT EVER RECEIVED? We are willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. (sic) “What you sent us got lost in cyberspace.” In this case, send us your Orthodox argument for abandoning the OCA and uniting under BOR one more time and we will surely post it.

    5)Toma, what is your problem? Our Episcopate is already in the OCA. The revolutionary idea would be for us to leave the local OCA and subject ourselves to foreign BOR rule. Whatever for? Convince us.

    6)Toma, what is your problem? If we abandon the local OCA and go under BOR all we do is present our American children with a BOR church that is even stranger to them than our present American Orthodox church. You must understand that our “strange traditions and clothes” are also a problem that we must overcome and present to our children as a “precious uniqueness”? Yes, there is no doubt, we are already having major problems keeping our children in the Orthodox faith in America, even while in the OCA with local American born Bishops and Priests. What we have learned in our 100 year history in this land is that we must focus less on Romanianism and more on Orthodoxy if we are to have any success in growing our ancestral faith here. What you propose, (going under BOR) will make our difficult task an impossible one since OUR children and YOUR children/ grandchildren will not want to belong to what they will perceive as an ETHNIC church here in America, run by foreign Bishops and controlled from a foreign country by church clerics which are paid by that foreign government which essentially runs it. Understand that our Church is not really divided in that the ROEA-OCA represents the vast majority while the ROAA-BOR is definitely a minor role player. Real divisions happen when there is no choice. Here, anyone in the ROEA-OCA who would prefer the ROAA-BOR can chose the latter group. In that situation, the only question that would remain is why they would have joined the ROEA-OCA in the first place?

    7)Toma, what is your problem? If you bother to read the UNITY APPEAL you will see that what Bucharest talks about is an: “appeal to all Romanian Orthodox clerics and faithful abroad, who are, without blessing, in other sister Orthodox Churches or in non-canonical church structures, to restore their direct communion with their Mother Church, under the canonical jurisdiction of the Holy Synod of the Romanian Orthodox Church.” Toma, as long as Bucharest considers us their Diaspora there will be a fight. Understand that we are no ones Diaspora. WE ARE AMERICAN AND CANADIANS OF ROMANIAN HERITAGE, AND AMERICAN AND CANADIANS WHO HAVE CHOSEN ORTHODOXY, ALL OF US BELONGING TO THE VATRA ROEA EPISCOPATE UNDER THE CANONICAL COVERAGE OF THE AUTOCEPHALOUS OCA. THIS IS OUR CHOICE. GET IT?? Those wanting the ROAA-BOR should go – sooner rather than later, so that we get on with our church life here, in our Vatra Episcopate, the ROEA-OCA.


  31. Cornelia Merchant Says:

    The “Appeal for Unity and Dignity” is an insult to our intelligence. As many have commented, jurisdictions only overlap in the big cities. America is huge and there will only always be someone in Diaspora that will be searching for a church because of demographics. What would Romania say if Moscow, or Antioch, wanted to move in and claim their Diasporas in Romania and want to build churches? They would be singing a whole different tune, wouldn’t they?

    The veracity of their statement is truly in question. The have a long history of double- dealing, two-faced deception. Has there been any official statement from Chambesy other than the Romanian version? Pride and arrogance is what caused humanity to fall. It is completely and utterly sinful that it has come to a point that Romanian clergy and hierarchs here and abroad put political ethnic correctness before Orthodoxy itself. Liberality is a virtue and a gift from God. It should not be taken away from the ecclesia.

    It appears to me that some clergy in our episcopate are conspiring with ROAA to drive a wedge between the Romanian Orthodox Laity; creating issues that have nothing to do with loving and embracing one another but rather trying to create 2 groups – those who are Romanian and those who are Anti-Romanian. There are some that are quite verbal, some who are deceivingly manipulative and other who are completely silent. Those who take a stand are not the ones we need to worry about. We know where they stand. God would rather us be hot or cold. He has no use for those who are lukewarm. Are the quiet ones afraid of the inevitable and protecting themselves, there families, the lives they’ve come accustomed to in America? Many clergy who are against unity have been threatened by their own brothers. The cold war days are back again. You cannot trust anyone anymore. This, in my opinion, is what ROAA wants.

    Orthodoxy is a way of life, practicing love, charity, humility and all the other virtues. It is also about discernment and standing up for those who are not able to defend themselves. I continue to ask the question, “How will Romanian Unity promote any kind of North American Unity?” No one; I repeat, No One has answered that question.

    With all due respect to THE PRESIDENT OF THE HOLY SYNOD OF THE ROMANIAN ORTHODOX CHURCH, † D A N I E L, since 1929 the ROAA-BOR has been tying to get it’s hands on the Vatra. This unity thing is not about unity, but rather greed and coveting.

    Only God knows if Romanian Unity will be achieved. What the Holy Synod of Romanian doesn’t understand is that the “Vatra” in on American soil and the last time I looked, that still means something. Don’t be surprised if a grass roots class action suit is filed with the Supreme Court of the United States of America that the Hierarchs of ROAA are in collusion to control the Vatra and the same points that won the decision for the ROEA at the Supreme Court in May of 1950 are argued and will win for the grass roots Orthodox again, for a second time; that being: “…the Romanian Orthodox Missionary Episcopate (AKA ROEA) had achieved a degree of autonomy sufficient to permit it to elect its own bishop.” And the Supreme Court upheld the district court’s decision, “…that such autonomy did exist under the by-laws of 1932 and was recreated by action of the proper officials in 1947 and 1948.” Therefore the injunctive relief sought by the ROAA and its representative was denied, permanently enjoining them from representing themselves as of the ROEA, from using the name “Solia” for any publications, and FROM OCCUPYING OR USING THE LAND, BUILDINGS AND PERSONAL PROPERTY LOCATED ON THE VATRA, GRASS LAKE, MICHIGAN. That being said, the only proper choice would be to turn over the Vatra to the OCA, the ecclesia of the ROEA and their properties that wish to go to ROAA go and those that don’t answer to OCA.

    Let me go on record by saying, “Enough is Enough. OCA All The Way!”


  32. The two shall be one Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share Your Comments’ section regarding ‘Unity Appeal’

    Maybe this is too simplistic but my wife is of Greek descent and I Russian. By the standards of this letter from the Orthodox Church in Romanian, where are we supposed to attend the liturgy. Do we have to split ourselves and attend church out of town in loyalty to our ethnic heritage, or do we attend the only Orthdox Church in town which happens to be Orthodox Church in America? Please Orthodox bishops in America, what should I do?


  33. Toma Says:

    1) “My problem is” ca domnule administrator iti bati joc de romani, de Patriarhia romana, de toti cei din Episcopia aceasta care sunt Romani. Asta e problema mea.

    2) Pe ce limba se tine toata liturghia in cele mai mari Parohii din Episcopie. New York, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles, Florida. Pe limba romana, in caz ca nu stii. DE CE? Fiind ca cei 300-400 de oameni care umple biserica Duminica sunt ROMANI!

    3)Nu mai nega, ci accepta adevarul, ca 85 la suta din episcopie sunt Romani de Generati 1. E timpul sa te trezesti domnule adiministrator.


  34. Admininsrator Says:

    1)Toma, de unde o scoti si pe asta? Arata unde? Intr-adevar, Patriarhia Romana este una, dar ea este compusa de indivizi; unii curat si altii mai putin. N’avem numai dreptul, dar si obligatia crestina ca lumina si adevarul sa spele totul.

    2)Toma, ce are de aface limba liturgica cu necesitatea de a ramane in OCA? Biserica plina astazi se va goli maine daca nu facem loc pentru acesti copii nascuti aici si nevoile lor.

    3)Toma, ca ai dreptate sau nu ai dreptate cu cifrele, nu reprezinta nici o diferenta, fiindca pui problema gresit. Viitorul parohiilor noastre sunt copii nostri. Daca suntem capabil sa satisfacem nevoile lor religioase, atunci ei vor ramane in aceste biserici care altfel se vor goli. Deci, ce este astazi sa darama maine daca nu oferim copiilor nostri o biserica pe placul lor, pe limba lor, organizat in functie de cultura lor, si nu a parintilor lor.


  35. Toma Says:

    1)Daca vrei future pentru copii americani (pe care ii tot amintesti) adui la Biserica. Toti vrem ca ei sa aiba viitor. Dar copii romaniilor de generatia doua, treia etc. (cum e cazul dumneavoastra) nu sunt prezenti in biserica ori si cum. Nu sunt in AROY. Sunt casatoriti cu ne-ortodocsi. Cu siguranta nu vor fii prezenti peste 2 ani sau trei….daca ramanem in OCA. Asa ca te rog nu te mai folosi de argumentul acesta ca scuza si justificare. Sunt parohii unde se slujeste numai in engleza. Dece nu sunt pline de tineri americani?

    2)Limba nu e problema domnule. Problema este ca romanii in America sunt impartiti in doua Arhiepiscopii. De aceea trebuie unire. Punct. Faptul ca apartinem de OCA nu ne umple biserciile! Bisericiile se vor umle cand toti romanii vor fii uniti intr-o singura mitropolie!


  36. Administrator Says:

    1)Toma, daca ai dreptate dejaba ne unim. In 30 de ani nici nu vom mai exista ca parohii! Nu vezi ca numai adaptandu-ne la nevoile copiilor nostrii asiguram viitorul lor religios? CE NU INTELEG? Nu vreau sa cred ca nu iti pasa de viitorul copiilor tai si ai mei. Dar daca asa este, ar fi mai bine sa te ocup de altceva … acolo unde nu pot sa faci rau copiilor …

    2)Toma, problema este ca nu vrei sa intelegi ca peste 1-2 generatii, copii nostrii vor vorbi numai engleza, si daca nu facem un efort masiv astazi, ei nu vor avea religia noastra stramoseasca, si bisericiile noastre vor fi goale.


  37. Toma Says:

    Domnule Administrator, problema nu este limba, ca daca ar fii limba, bisericiile care savarsesc sfintele slujbe “numai in engleza” ar fii trebuii sa fie pline de tineret acuma. Dar nu sunt. Problema copiilor si venitul lor la biserica, are de a face 99 la suta cu educatia lor care o primesc de la parinti acasa. Copii in al doilea rand, o mare parte nici nu au soti/sotii ortodocsi. Acuma vorbim despre situatia prezenta. Deci limba nu este problema, ori cat ai intoarce ideea. Majoritatea din aceasta episcopie sunt romani de generatia intaia. Intrebati pe IPS N. daca nu crede-ti. Educatia incepe de acasa domnule. Tine cont ca majoritatea in aceasta episcopie suntem romani de generatia intaia si copii nostrii vorbesc romana la perfectiune. Si la randul lor ii invata si pe copii lor. Ca sa ne pastram etnia romana, trebuie sa ne pastram si biserica romana.

    Problema e ca romanii nu sunt uniti pe acest continent. Faptul ca ne unim sub BOR “is a step forward.” Dumnezeu ii place unitatea … nu dezbinarea. Suntem romani dezbinati pe acest continent mare si trebuie sa ne unim sub un singur ierarh, intr-o singura mitropolie. Si asta domnule; unitatea aceasta, ne asigura viitorul. Nu sa mai ramnem anima-nui sub OCA, unde au plecat toti, si ukrainienii si sarbii pana cand si rusii. Am mai ramas doar noi romanii si albanezii. Deci credem intr-o biserica americana insa nu amestecandu-ne aiurea, asa cum vrea OCA.


  38. Admininsrator Says:

    Toma, nu vezi ca problema cea mai mare este ca nu sunt destui tineri in Biserica? Si cum sa facem sa-i tinem langa noi? Nu este mai bine sa le dam o Biserica, unde limba lor este pe primul plan, unde Biserica este condusa de oameni care sunt de aici, si au aceiasi cultura si obiceiuri ca si ei? Nu incerca sa ne spui noua ca toti copiii imigrantilor de prima generatie “vorbesc romana la perfectiune” si ca “la randul lor ii invata si pe copiii lor”. Ar insemna ca acest val de immigranti ar fi mult mai nationalisti decat toti cei veniti in America dupa 1880! Fii serios! Traim cu totii impreuna in aceleasi parohii si avem si noi ochi sa vedem realitatea. Tineretul are nevoie de a fi convins ca ortodoxia noastra nu este numai o religie pentru imigrantii din Europa de est, dar este una si pentru Americani ca ei, si ca si copiii lor. Pentru aceasta vrem sa privim in fata spre Biserica Ortodoxa Americana, si nu in spate la BOR. Intorcandu-ne la BOR ar insemna traire in ghetto-ul etnic, care a dat esec de mai multe ori in istoria noastra in America. Suntem nevoiti sa invatam din trecutul nostru de aici, si sa actionam in functie de realitatiile de aici, si nu din visuri nostalgice. Sa pare ca pastrarea etniei romane aici, (ceva dovedit imposibil dupa 1-2 generatii) este mai importanta pentru tine, decat pastrarea religiei noastre ortodoxe (care se poate daca este transformata intr-o religie Americana). NU AI DREPTUL SA AMESTECI ETNIA CU RELIGIA. SFINTII PARINTI SI TEOLOGII NOSTRII ORTODOCSI NE-AU PUS PE DRUMUL UNIVERSALISMULUI CRESTINESC SI NE SPUN SA NE FERIM DE FILETISM.

    Romanii ortodocsi din America care vad Biserica lor ca una in tranzitie spre una adevarata Americana, au ales in proportie masiva Episcopia noastra Vatra, ROEA-OCA. Minoritatea imigrantilor, care include si cei care vor romanismul in Biserica, au ales ROAA-BOR. Nu exista dezbinare in aceasta alegere. Ambele Episcopii au rolul lor pana cand a doua dispare in marea Americana. Pentru aceasta credem, cum au crezut si inaintasii nostri, ca OCA-ul reprezinta viitorul nostru religios in America si ca BOR-ul face parte din trecutul nostru. Spui ca, “credem intr-o biserica Americana” dar trecand intai din OCA in BOR ca sa revenim in Biserica Ortodoxa Americana? Argumentul prezentat este fara baza logica! Pe cine vrei sa convingi cu astfel de “argument”? Sau pe cine vrei sa convingi cu minciuni? Nici un grup nu a plecat din OCA, ci din contra, sunt din ce in ce mai multe grupuri care se intereseaza de OCA! In plus, majoritatea ukrainienilor de aici sunt sub Constantinopol si nu Kiev. Sarbii au declarat o unire, dar exista numai in vant! Rusii sunt impartiti in trei de mult, si chiar daca o unire se incearca cu doua grupuri, vedem mai multa despartire decat unire.


  39. Toma Says:

    Te rog raspunde-mi dece Bisericile Romanesti au mai multi tineri in Biserica Duminica decat parohiile strict Americane? Iata suntem sub OCA, momentan. Dece nu vin tinerii la bisericiile in care se vorbeste engleze? Dece?

    Termina cu prostiile ca ne-am saturat sa ne duce-ti pe toti romanii de nas cu afirmatii din astea de doi bani.


  40. Administrator Says:

    Toma, Bisericiile noastre din America de Nord care au avut o mare imigratie dupa 1990, sunt pline de noi veniti, dar gasesti si o minoritate de urmasi ai primele generatii de romani aici. Acesti credinciosi noi veniti vorbesc romaneste, dar copii lor si mai ales nepotii lor vor vorbi mai mult engleza. Daca nu incepem de acum sa modelam biserica pentru acesti tineri, in limba lor si dupa cultura lor, atunci, cand nu mai inteleg ei romana nu vor mai veni la Biserica deloc.

    Unde nu a fost o mare imigratie dupa 1990 gasesti mai mult urmasii ai primele generatii de romani si convertiti. Slujbele aici au trecut prea tarziu din Romana in Engleza, si numai credinciosii mai apropiati de Biserica au putut sa instaureze dragul ortodoxiei in inima copiilor lor. Acesti urmasi si convertitii sunt cei care sustin astazi aceste biserici neinprospatite de noi imigranti.

    Primul grup ar trebui sa invete dela al doilea si sa treaca mult mai repede la o Biserica in linie cu limba si cultura de aici; altfel vom vorbi numai de inchiderea bisericiilor noastre si nu de expansiune ortodoxa pe acest continent.


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leave me not with the spirit of laziness,
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Rather, give me, your servant, the spirit of integrity,
of humility, of patience, and of love.

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Our Father, who are in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

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our daily bread,
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