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Romanian-Orth. Schism - USA

Author: Claudiu Padurean
November 26, 2009
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Romanian Orthodox Schism in the USA, almost at the finish line
From: www.romanialibera.ro - unofficial translation

Representatives of the two Romanian Orthodox church structures in the United States of America are on the verge of putting an end to the schism which has brought discord to this community since the installation of the communist regime.

The two Dioceses of Romanian Orthodox in the US, most of whom emigrated from Transylvania, are about to be reunited in a common Metropolitanate.  The decision to reunite the Romanian Orthodox communities in the US under the same jurisdiction could be taken as soon as in a few weeks time.

The proposal to establish a Romanian Orthodox Metropolitanate for North America emerges from a dialogue commission composed of representatives of the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese of the US and Canada, headquartered in Michigan and under the jurisdiction of the Orthodox Patriarchate in Bucharest [BOR], and representatives of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate from the Vatra, Illinois, which is under the jurisdiction of the American Orthodox Church [OCA].  The representatives of the Archdiocese who met these past few days, analyzed and were in agreement with the final proposal made by the ‘Vatra’ Romanian Orthodox Episcopate.  An official document remains to be adopted in a Dialogue Commission meeting, which will meet in the coming weeks.  The Holy Synod would then validate the creation of the North American Metropolitanate, which after more than half a century will reunite the Romanian Orthodox from across the ocean.  Already, some voices in the BOR Holy Synod have expressed their agreement with this solution.

The two Dioceses now shepherd the descendants of those Romanians who settled across the ocean.  The first Romanian Orthodox parish in North America dates from 1902 and it was founded by Romanians from Transylvania, under the former Austro-Hungarian monarchy.  The first Romanian Orthodox Deanery dates from 1912 and was comprised of 16 parishes, under a Russian Orthodox Episcopate of North American.   In 1922 the Romanian-Americans asked that their own Episcopate be formed.  The Holy Synod approved a missionary Episcopate and the first Bishop, Polycarp Morusca, the brother-in-law of of the future Metropolitan Nicolae Balan of Sibiu, was named in 1935.  In 1939, Bishop Polycarp returned to Romania, from which he was unable to ever leave again, and this because of WWII and then because of communism.  In 1950, BOR sent Andrei Moldovan in his place as Bishop

The clergy in the US refused him and they elected Valerian Trifa as Vicar- Bishop.  This is how the Romanian Orthodox schism began in North America.  Valerian Trifa was consecrated Bishop by Ukrainian Hierarchs and affiliated the Episcopate to the Russian Orthodox Metropolia in the US, run by tsarist clerics, who emigrated because of Lenin’s persecutions.  As a response to this, the Romanian Orthodox Patriarchate created a new Episcopate headquartered in Michigan.  Also as a response to this, BOR raised its American Episcopate to the level of Archdiocese.  After decades of tension, the fall of communism brought about the beginning of negotiations among the Romanians in the US.  Now, representatives of the Archdiocese in Michigan headed by His Eminence Archbishop Nicolae, and representatives of the Vatra Episcopate headed by His Eminence Archbishop Irineu, seem to have arrived at an accord.

25 Comments to “Romanian-Orth. Schism - USA”


  1. Administrator Says:

    The above article in a well-known Romanian newspaper is replete with misinformation. In fact, no one can make so many one-sided mistakes. For this reason it can only be another piece of propaganda woven by Bucharest sympathizers here! Analysis anyone?

    1) “Schism”? Both groups concelebrate. The word schism does not apply here.
    2) “On the verge of putting an end…” What, is this ROEA-ROAA Unity under BOR?
    3) “The two Dioceses… are about to be reunited in a common Metropolitanate… When did this get decided and by whom? Get real…
    4) “The decision to reunite… could be taken as soon as in a few weeks time. Says Who? THIS CANNOT JUST BE DECLARED! The process is clear.
    5) The ROAA is from Michigan and the ROEA from the Vatra, Illinois? What is this? Even a child wouldn’t fall for this one.
    6) The ROAA members “…analyzed and were in agreement with the final proposal made by the ‘Vatra’ Romanian Orthodox Episcopate.” No such proposal exists. Everything discussed to date has been JOINTLY produced, which probably means it was first forged in Bucharest.
    7) “An official document remains to be adopted in a Dialogue Commission meeting, which will meet in the coming weeks.” This is news. But, in any event, the Dialogue Commission CANNOT approve, let alone adopt any such thing!
    8) The BOR “Holy Synod would then validate the creation of the North American Metropolitanate…” Uh, Due Diligence reports, Episcopate Council recommendations, Episcopate Congress suggestions, Parish General Assemblies, OCA involvement, property, liabilities, etc. This comes after BOR proclaims the Unity a done deal? Who is laughing here? April Fools is in April, not now.
    9) The ROAA from Michigan headed by Archbishop Nicolae and the ROEA from Illinois headed by Archbishop Irineu are forging the Unity under BOR? WHAT? GET REAL. Where is Archbishop Nathaniel in all of this? Apparently, we “seem to have arrived at an accord”?

    Is there no end to the gall? Doesn’t Bucharest see that this type of propaganda does not work here in North America? Don’t they see that the contrary has happened? At one time some people were open to discussing the possibilities. Now? People are more upset than ever. Who wants to forge a relationship with a partner who uses grotesque propaganda tactics in an attempt to mislead ROEA members into submission? Here, we prefer elegant debate, and by the rules. We passionately abhor the tools used by the pro-unity under Bucharest camp and consider them to be disgusting. Enough. Let’s stop this BOR joke before next April Fools Day 2010, and get on with growing our church in North America, as a diocese of the OCA. Too much ink has been spilled, trees cut down, time wasted, money squandered and sincere effort misused on a debate that should never have started…


  2. Ardeleanu Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respectiv

    De ce n-aţi scris în articol şi numărul de credincioşi aparţinători de cele două biserici [dioceze] ? Ca să ştie lumea realitatea de pe teren, nu doar ceea ce vrea B.O.R. de la Bukale, împănată cu agenţii lui Ilici, să se ştie despre situaţia de acolo…


  3. Mr.J.J. Says Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respectiv

    Din nou va reamintesc faptul cum in mod neplacut la ziarul Dv. sunt retinute comentarii in care cu toate ca au fost respectate eticile impuse din motive de interpretare politica nedorita comentariile sunt in mod penibil cenzurate. In realitate e dreptul Dv. de a va lua astfel de riscuri care duce in mod neplacut la o alta reputatie.


  4. Mr.J.J. Says Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respectiv

    Domnilor, enuntarea cu termenul de schisma a ortodocsilor romani din U.S.A. e incorecta in raport cu lupta ortodocsilor romani din U.S.A. de a opri actiunea de acaparare fortata de catre statul comunist roman timp de 60 de ani a bisericilor ortodocse romane din U.S.A. Pentru pastrarea acestei independente au fost sacrificati ierarhi ortodocsi romani.


  5. Anonim Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respective

    De cand conduce PS Irineu Episcopia de la Vatra?


  6. Zeus Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respective

    BOR in AMERICA??
    Pai, parca ziceati ca ungurii nativi din transilvania ar trebui sa fie romani. Acum ortodocsi migranti ca mai peste tot, chiar si din America, sunt rrromani sau americani ?


  7. Mr.J.J. Says:

    Din http://www.romanialibera.ro “Comentarii” la articolul respectiv
    Domnilor, istoria ortodocsilor romani nu a fost o schisma ci o lupta de a trai independenti fata de o biserica controlata si dirijata de Moscova si P.C.R. Arhivele fostei securitati dealungul zecilor de ani arata la cate marsavii deliberate si aplicate a trebuit sa riposteze in timp fosta Episcopie Ortodoxa Independenta Romana din U.S.A. pentru a supravietui.


  8. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    The article published by Claudiu Padurean in the “Romania Libera”‘ issue of November 26,2009 represents an insult and an outrage. Claudiu Padurean is a “journalist” from Cluj and he has family and friends in the U.S. Is this the source of his “journalistic attempt”? He has made significant journalistic mistakes, or are they intentional?

    First of all “schism” means “differences in religious beliefs” which create a rupture in the unified religion. The case of the Romanian-American Orthodox community is not about differences in beliefs. It always has been and is about what should be the future of Orthodoxy in the New World and the future of the Romanian-American Orthodox community here. Should that community be part of the American mainstream or should it be an appendix and the tool of a foreign organization? The split is also about the fact that the “missionary” diocese (ROAA) was and remains a typical parallel organization brought into existence by the Romanian communist regime and the Romanian Patriarchate (BOR) to be a thorn in the side of the canonical body, which is the “Vatra” Episcopate (ROEA), which is part of the autocephalous Orthodox Church of America (OCA).

    The author of the article, and/or whoever fed him this “information”, is simply spreading propaganda by spewing falsehoods like,” the decision to reunite (i.e. the project of subordination of the Vatra Episcopate to the Romanian Patriarchate) … could be taken as soon as in a few weeks time”. In the meantime, the author of the article and his handlers grossly insult the ‘Vatra’ Episcopate by saying that the ‘missionary’ diocese - ROAA - … “analyzed and were in agreement with the final proposal made by the ‘Vatra’ Romanian Orthodox Episcopate”. Since when has such an approval been given by the ‘Vatra’ and by whom and in the name of whom? The same article continues: “Already, some voices in the BOR Holy Synod have expressed their agreement with this solution”. Who asked for BOR to get involved here! Since when does the Vatra have “solutions” to leave the OCA that are discussed with the BOR Holy Synod before being properly, objectively and fully discussed internally? If this were to happen this would be highly unethical and an insult to the OCA, our Mother Church. The parishes of the “Vatra”, so far, have not had the opportunity to debate the nefarious project of subordination to the Romanian Patriarchate and separation from the American Autocephalous Orthodox Church, but some members of the Romanian Synod have already “expressed their agreement with this solution”?

    What is the Vatra and its Dialogue Commission (JDC) official view on this latest outrage where propaganda is continuously spewed out from Romania regarding OUR church? Silence is not acceptable in the face of LIES. And when the LIES are repeated it is called propaganda, and the Vatra and our JDC have the obligation to set the record straight. If not, it seems that our silence means agreement with the lies.

    Finally, what an insult to our Archbishop, His Eminence Nathaniel, who was not even mentioned in the article, particularly during this year, when He celebrates the 25th anniversary of His enthronement! Instead, proving his ignorance, Claudiu Padurean presents the Vatra’s Vicar Bishop, our auxiliary Bishop, as the ruling Bishop, and elevates him to the rank of Archbishop! What is very sad in all this is that “Romania Libera” is an important Romanian newspaper and for many in Romania and even abroad, this propaganda is considered to be news!


  9. Joe Says:

    Good-bye OCA!


  10. George Cantor Says:

    To paraphrase former President Reagan, “…there they go again”. Like the proverbial old dog that can’t be taught new tricks, the government of Romania, through its surrogate the BOR, is once again proclaiming that unity between the ROEA and ROAA has been achieved.

    Looking beyond the article’s numerous factual inaccuracies, several concerns emerge. One is the relentless nature by which the BOR repeatedly chooses to insert this false information into otherwise legitimate news media. This latest instance parallels their pathetic attempt at the same end following the Epsicopate Congress in July 2008 when unity “under” the Patriarchate was falsely proclaimed in the Romanian print and broadcast media.

    Second is the fact that from the Epsicopate’s perspective, the Joint Dialogue Committee’s work has been completed and the JDC has been officially retired. I have personally heard Archbishop Nathaniel state on several occasions, most notably during a joint meeting with the ROAA’s Diocesan Council in Cleveland, Ohio in March 2009, that no further moves toward unity will be undertaken until due diligence activities have been completed. The BOR’s pronouncements conveniently and regularly overlook this key proviso.

    Finally, under whose imprimatur of authority are “representatives” of the ROEA operating when “negotiating” with BOR-ROAA on matters pertaining to unity, as is alluded to in the article? I recall no such mandate given to anyone. In fact, all that is officially authorized to be completed by any ROEA representatives are our Due Diligence matters. If anyone has dared go beyond this in the name of the ROEA, he has some explaining to do to his boss, the Archbishop, to the ROEA Episcopate Council and Congress, and possibly the OCA.


  11. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    Each year the USA’s Department of State issues a report regarding freedom of religion in the world. Each country has a chapter and so has Romania. The 2009 report is available on internet and is far from praising the Romanian Orthodox Patriarchate which is closely linked to the Romanian State. These conclusions are not a matter of debate, they are fact. Close links between Church and State? This is unheard of in a North American context. Unnacceptable even!

    In a very ominous sign of what is in store for the “Vatra” if the nefarious project of subordination, “unity”, under BOR would become a reality, churches of the Vatra here in the USA, were used as polling stations for the elections in Romania, and that right now, November/December 2009! If this isn’t a wake-up
    call, what is?


  12. Anonymous Says:

    Mind boggling! Sure, why not; let’s leave the OCA and join BOR. Heck, we already have Romanian politics in our Churches! Yes, some of our churches have become polling stations. Believe it! Are our churches becoming Embassy/Consulate extensions? Last Sunday, November 22, 2009, some of the Vatra Churches were polling stations for the Romanian Government. Check out the list of USA locations “Punct de Votare” supplied by the Romanian Government.

    This coming Sunday, St. Nicholas Day, when you go to church, hope that your church is not on the list as a Romanian Government polling station. If it is, try to pray, while some people accost you handing out voting information and even partisan newspapers/ material, so that you may vote the right way in the Romanian elections on your own church property. What is the role of the priest here? How can this be allowed to happen? What gives?


  13. Fr. David Hudson Says:

    Dear Brothers, I lived in Romania from 1993-2002, and during that time my daughter earned a degree in journalism at Babes-Bolyai University in Cluj. Please don’t assume that everything that appears in a Romanian newspaper has been written by the Patriarchate. There is no accountability whatsoever for what journalists may publish in Romanian newspapers. My guess is that the author in question simply picked up this story second-hand, did no research, and passed it on it the butchered-up form in which it appears.

    It really takes some credulity to believe that the Patriarchate would make such ignorant mistakes. Yes, the Patriarchate has published its own, official, misleading reports, but this piece of work is beyond that. I wouldn’t get worked up about it if I were you. During the early stages of my conversion (before there was really anything to write about), a well-known journalist from Cluj wrote statements about me in a local newspaper which were not true. When I finally tracked him down to ask where he got such information, he just shrugged his shoulders and considered it a non-issue. The same things happen here in the U.S. Give the Patriarchate a break now and then!


  14. Administrator Says:

    Dear Father David, it would seem from the following letter, officially sent by our Episcopate on December 4, 2009 to the “Romania Libera” newspaper, that we, on this website, are not the only ones outraged here. Fr. Remus Grama of Cleveland, signs this official Episcopate letter as ROEA “Councilor, External Affairs”.


  15. Pr. Remus Grama, ROEA Councilor, External Affairs Says:

    Din Website-ul Episcopiei Vatra, http://www.roea.org - Sectia “News” 4 decembrie, 2009

    Catre: Ziarul România Liberă, Transilvania – online, 4 decembrie, 2009
    Clarificări din Partea Episcopiei Ortodoxe Române din America

    Detroit, Michigan, SUA – Din încredinţarea IPS Sale, I.P.S. Arhiepiscop Nathaniel Popp, vă aducem la cunoştinţă că Episcopia Ortodoxă Română din America (O.C.A.) deplânge lipsa de răspundere cu care articolul intitulat “Schizma ortodocşilor români din SUA…”, publicat in ediţia on line a ziarului Romania Liberă, Transilvania, in 26 Noiembrie, 2009, prezintă situaţia dintre cele doua episcopii ortodoxe româneşti de pe continentul Nord American. Fundalul istoric al acestei prezentări este distorsionat. Fără a intra în detalii, vă comunicăm că respingem evaluarea autorului care afirmă că începutul rupturii dintre Episcopia Ortodoxă Română din America şi Biserica-mamă ar fi început prin alegerea Episcopului Valerian Trifa. Cauzele reale ale acestei despărţiri s-au creat, mai de grabă, prin reţinerea primului său Episcop, P.S. Policarp Moruşca în România, pensionarea şi înlocuirea sa împotriva voinţei sale. Aceasta a dovedit că Biserica era la acea vreme controlată de un guvern ateu. Desigur, chestiunea a fost politică şi, de aceea, termenul “schismă” (din titlu) nu este doar nepotrivit, ci chiar ofensiv, mai cu seamă în contextual de azi al dialogului frăţesc dintre cele două eparhii.

    În goana condeiului, autorul acestui articol, Dl. Claudiu Padurean, face şi alte confuzii grave intre cele două episcopii, plasându-le în locaţii geografice inverse. Spre a îndrepta orice neînţelegere, subliniem faptul că scaunul Episcopei Ortodoxe Române din America se află in orasul Detroit, iar sediul ei administrativ, cunoscut după numele proprietăţii de la “Vatra Romanească,” este situat în oraşul Jackson, Michigan. Menţionăm totodată că reşedinţa Arhiepiscopiei Ortodoxe Romane din America si Canada se află în oraşul Chicago, Illinois. Continuând seria erorilor, articolul dezinformează pe cititor, anunţând că o decizie de reunire a acestor episcopii într-o singură mitropolie “ar putea fi luata chiar in saptămânile viitoare.” Ştirea este neîntemeiată. Întrucăt astfel de hotărâri nu pot fi luate decât de către Congresul celor două Episcopii, dorim să clarificăm, în special pentru liniştea credincioşilor noştri, că Episcopia nu are cunoştinţă despre vreo astfel de hotărâre imediată. Dialogul celor două dioceze este o chestiune de tămăduire româno-americană pe care orice dezinformare poate să-l complice. Spre a evita astfel de speculaţii diletante în chestiuni bisericeşti, rugăm pe reprezentanţii ziarului dvs. ca, în viitor, să verifice informaţiile direct de la sursă (www. roea.org)

    Întrucât prin publicarea acestui articol ziarul România Liberă dezinformează de asemenea pe cititori că Episcopia Ortodoxă Română din America ar fi “condusă de I.P.S. Irineu,” dorim să vă informăm că Arhiepiscopul acestei istorice episcopii, este Înalt Prea Sfinţia Sa, I.P.S. Dr. Nathaniel Popp, care a fost sfinţit întru Episcop încă din anul 1980, devenind arhipăstorul Eparhiei, în anul 1984. Prea Sfinţitul Părinte Irineu este Episcop-vicar al eparhiei noastre. Vă mulţumim pentru publicarea acestor importante clarificări, menite să corecteze orice percepţie greşită a imaginii celor două eparhii din America şi a dialogului dintre acestea.
    P.C. Pr. Dr. Remus Grama
    Consilier Relaţii Externe


  16. Administrator Says:

    In this response to the Romania Libera newspaper, it is clear that the Vatra Episcopate has again been compromised by false reporting in an un-called for and self-serving manner. The outrage that surely must be felt at the Vatra has been kept under wraps, as it should, and this letter simply points out the inaccuracies in this newspaper’s reporting. It must be noted that the “Romania Libera” newspaper is one of the largest and most influential newspapers in Romania and as such, what they present as news is mostly accepted as fact. For this reason, it was important for the Vatra to respond in the cool, calm and collected way it did, being an Orthodox Episcopate with an American cultural tradition. The Truth was told – elegantly. Congratulations.


  17. Anonim Says:

    Deci hai sa nu folosim acest articol ca arma impotriva BOR. Articolul este “outrageous” si fara nici un adevar. Insa este gresit si nedrept sa acuzam BOR pentru aceasta actiune. Ziaristii pot scrie ce vor. Se intampla in toata lumea, chiar si in “America.” Let’s not exaggerate and let’s not point fingers because that’s what children do when they feel they can use something/an event as support in an argument, regardless whether or not that “element” is true. Iata prin dialog, cum e situl acesta, la fiecare intamplare se pune vina pe BOR.
    Presa in Romania e ca si cea in America; e libera sa isi manifesta parerea. Informatii gresite se transmit in fiecare zi in presa, in toata lumea. Sper sa devenim mai intelepti, mai diplomati si mai ales, mai Crestini, decat sa acuzam pe unul si altul, indiferent ar fi aceia, la fiecare magarie si intamplare.

    Aceasta unire trebuie discutata mai extins la Congress, nu evitat cum a fost toti anii acestea in urma. Trebuie neaparat sa se ia la vot. In orice societate, majoritatea castiga. Daca majoritatea din episcopie e pentru unire, sa se faca unirea cu BOR. Insa, aceasta trebuie discutata si votata; nu trebuie lasata la mana Ierarhului ca ei sa aiba decizia finala (ca si ei sunt alesi de Congress) si nici la mana Comisiei de Dialog (ei doar sa produca o promenere aprobata reciproc de abele Arhiepiscopii). Sa se aduca la Congress si sa se voteze odata ca se tot discuta acelasi lucru de 15 ani! SI SA SE VOTEZE LA ADUNARILE GENERALE [DIN PAROHII]. Votul majoritar trece. Nu se poate ca o mica minoritate sa conduca o majoritate, indiferent daca acea minoritate este pentru unire sau impotriva.


  18. Administrator Says:

    Am sa traduc in limba lui Eminescu ce am spus in limba lui Shakespeare, “Artiocolul de mai sus dintr-un ziar bine cunoscut in Romania este plin de ne-adevaruri. De fapt, nimeni nu poate face atat de multe greseli partinitoare. Deci, este evident ca acest articol este inca o propaganda intocmita de simpatizanti ai Bucurestiului de aici! (The above article in a well-known Romanian newspaper is replete with misinformation. In fact, no one can make so many one-sided mistakes. For this reason it can only be another piece of propaganda woven by Bucharest sympathizers here!) Cine vede BOR in supa?

    Acum, despre Congres, si ce se discuta acolo. Nu uita ca agenda Congresului Episcopesc este facuta de Consiliul Episcopesc. Nu uita ca aceasta Episcopie, este condusa de propriul sau Statut si ca totul trebuie facut dupa acest Statut, inclusiv faptul ca sunt decizii care se iau printr-un vot majoritar de cel putin 50% +1, si altele printr-un vot majoritar de cel putin 66.67% +1. In plus sunt decizii unde acest vot majoritar de cel putin 66.67% +1 trebuie luat la nivelul Adunarilor Generale ale parohiilor (Sinod). Nu uita ca Episcopia noastra este doar o Dioceza a OCA-ului si ca noi nu putem sa facem totul de capul nostru. In final, niciodata o unire nu se poate face cu numai 50%. De fapt asta inseamna esec si in loc de Unire, vom avea dezbinare, cearta si chiar rupturi. Nu uita ca vorbim despre rasturnarea unui status quo unde fiecare a avut de ales cand a intrat in ROEA. Chiar nenea Mihai a ales ROEA-OCA, in loc de ROAA-BOR. De ce oare? Nu, in situatia noastra unde unii vor sa puna sub semnul intrebarii aceasta decizie déjà luata de fiecare cleric si membru din ROEA, un vot majoritar de 85% ar fi o cifra mai buna, mai corecta pentru a schimba un status quo. Din pacate cifra legala este de cel putin 66.67% +1. In plus, chiar cu acea cifra nu se stie ce se va intampla canonic cu situatia noastra in OCA. Suntem departe de a rezolva ceva…


  19. Where’s the Balance Says:

    Where is the balance on this site? I wrote numerous times, so did many of my aquaintances and they are not included anywhere. You talk about dialoque; quite a one sided one here. It seems that the good arguments are not posted, mabey too much truth to them.

    But don’t worry, the truth will get out and those who try to hide it will get hit the hardest then!

    Guardians of the Vatra? What a joke! (Do at least one quarter of what your parents did and then you could call yourselves ‘Guardians of the Vatra’.) Faceti si voi macar un sfert ce au facut parintii vostrii, atunci va puteti intradevar sa va numiti, Guardians of the Vatra!


  20. Administrator Says:

    Poor “Where’s the Balance”. Looking to cause a problem again through repetition? As previously mentioned, most every comment sent to this site is posted, albeit not immediately and not always in original form, and even after editing for personal attacks, bad language and repetition, no argument is ever left out, for or against. If you believe this is not the case, please show specific examples. As previously mentioned to you on Nov. 11, 2009 in response to you comment on the article . “Circular Logic” I said the following which still stands. Please read the response this time. Remember, repetitious remarks are usually edited out from this website. If this has not always been the case it is because we often give the benefit of the doubt; but not forever. “On this website, we try to present an issue-focused debate and we delete, omit, edit and otherwise clean up what we consider to be derogatory and unfair. As well, we do not allow personal insults, threats and unbecoming language on this site, either in an article or a comment. (Also, sometimes the idea presented is straight repetition, adding nothing new to the debate.) Therefore, please understand that it is for these reasons that we do not always “publish all the comments in full”. Given the above, we do not leave out an argument because it contradicts any personal view. If you think we have, please advise and we will rectify the situation. If anything, we are continuously prodding pro-unity under BOR supporters to come up with arguments for their “revolutionary” position, arguments that are Orthodox and American. To date, this website has received only ethnocentric arguments in favour of this Unity under BOR. If there are other arguments please present them so that we might discuss them in an open debate style forum, leaving insults and derogatory remarks outside the debate. Our poor church deserves at least this level of respect when we debate her future here in North America.”

                                       

    As well, please stop your threats. They only debase you and the discussion. “… don't worry, the truth will get out and those who try to hide it will get hit the hardest then!” Are you kidding? This is a civilized debate we wish to maintain on this site. NO MORE THREATS HERE.

     

    Finally, your insults are also getting out of hand. “Guardians of the Vatra? What a joke! Do at least one quarter of what your parents did and then you could call yourselves ‘Guardians of the Vatra’.” How dare you insult others in such a manner, and for what? Just because your only argument for leaving the OCA and submitting to BOR rule is an unconvincing ethnocentric and non-canonical one, does not give you the right to insult those who do not agree with you. NO MORE INSULTS HERE.


  21. Miss Nedumerita Says:

    Domnul Padureanu, cum poti dumneata sa te faci de rusine in fata la atita lume prin greselile si neadevarurile pe care le-ai scris in acest articol ? Nu stiu citi ani ai si daca esti din garda veche nu ma mira articolul domneatale, dar daca esti cit de cit educat nustiu la ce scoala ai umblat si este mare rusine pentru romini……documenteaza-te in viitor inainte de a scrie.
    Good luck…Miss Nedumerita


  22. Wheres the Balance Says:

    Once again Mr. Administrator you accuse wrongly. I have not written any of the things you mention above or attacked anyone. I have written facts. If I had a canonical argument I listed the canon…

    … If you look throughout the whole site it seems to be a real one sided debate. And this, Mr. Administrator, (Guardian of the Vatra) is your fault. Who knows, mabey this will not be posted as well!


  23. Administrator Says:

    Where’s the Balance? Understand that you cannot make such ridiculous claims. It is you who sends a posting to this site. (We do keep a record of all that is sent.) It is edited to take away most of the insults, threats and repetition. To now deny that you made certain assertions is incredible? Who are you trying to kid? What did you say early December, 2009 if not this?

    “… don’t worry, the truth will get out and those who try to hide it will get hit the hardest then!” This is not a statement we appreciate on this site and we told you so.

    “Guardians of the Vatra? What a joke! Do at least one quarter of what your parents did and then you could call yourselves ‘Guardians of the Vatra’.” This is equally offensive. Don’t you get it? You cannot go back on what you said! You can say you’re sorry if you feel you’ve wronged someone but to deny you said it in the first place is quite a stretch!

    As well, on this site there is an incredible attempt to obtain arguments from pro unity under BOR proponents for our leaving the OCA. However, to date, the only arguments received are ethnic-based and non-Orthodox. This is not our fault but the fault of those who have no valid argument for leaving the OCA.


  24. Fr. David Hudson Says:

    Be careful about your labels, brothers. I still believe, by virtue of my bit of experience in Romania, that the article represents nothing but the slipshod work of this particular journalist, and the total indifference of the editors to the veracity of the facts. My belief that the Patriarchate is not behind this particular bit of irresponsible journalism does not amount to an endorsement of Patriarchal jurisdiction in America. Let’s just be fair, that’s all.

    I do personally believe that the complexity of our mission in America necessitates a good collaboration with old world patriarchates. American Orthodoxy, while it is far from mature compared with old world Orthodoxy, should be self-ruled by its own, united, local synod, with the old world Churches in a consulting role.

    At the same time, if there is any jurisdiction called “Romanian” in America, then there should be only one. There should be unity of “Romanian Orthodoxy” in America, as long as anything called “Romanian Orthodoxy” exists in America, and that will be a long time into the future. I believe we have not exhausted all the possible ways this could be accomplished, nor all the complexities of what the unity should entail in its mission.

    As others have said here, neither a 50% nor a 67% majority constitutes a consensus, and without consensus there is no unity. This is the church, not a secular government, that we are talking about. There is still a lot of work to do before any voting would be useful.


  25. Administrator Says:

    Based on the above comments regarding the Romania Libera article, opinion is certainly divided on whether or not BOR was involved in this latest bit of “journalism”. Who is responsible? Is it BOR or supporters here of unity under BOR, is it a trusting writer fed partisan information, or simply an errant writer overseen by a careless editor? All this conjecture just underlines the fact that TRUST is definitely lacking here. Why? Well, past examples have proven that they are not trustworthy. I guess “you reap what you sow” has some truth to it. What is even more sad is that we are talking about the credibility of church leadership here.

    The closest thing we have to an independent American Orthodox Church is the OCA, of which our Episcopate is a part. Chambesy meetings will probably also have their word to say regarding the future American Church as will the new Episcopal Assemblies in America scheduled to begin in May 2010. In the meantime, what is wrong with the OCA territorial structure overlayed by ethnic structures as at present in the OCA? A Romanian Episcopate in the territorial OCA is just that, as is a Bulgarian one, etc. In time, all will melt into the territorial structure. Some of us applaud the foresight of our predecessors in having brought us into the OCA fold. Why can we not see this as a step ahead of many other ethnic Orthodox church groups in North America who are still tied to foreign mother churches and who would love to be rid of these old country ties?

    There is the need for unity of Romanian Orthodoxy in America, particularly since the recent mass immigration wave, but it should be a unity within the American Orthodox Church, and the only one around now is the OCA, of which we, in ROEA, are a founding member. Since 1990, we would have greatly appreciated BOR admitting its close ties with the Romanian Government that lead to the 1950’s political church creation, now called the ROAA. Having that political creation disappear after 1990 and having those parishes join the much larger ROEA in the OCA would have been the “right” thing to do, but it never happened. The other unity option would mean our abandoning the OCA to go under BOR, and this in order to create an American Orthodoxy we already have in the OCA? Really… No, going under BOR means going backwards, while staying in the OCA means forging ahead. Will the eventual American Orthodox Patriarchate be the OCA expanded or will it be a new church structure is anyone’s guess. However, as our OCA Metropolitan Jonah has said before, he is willing to collapse the OCA into that new structure if consensus and an American Patriarchate is achieved in so doing. Now that is leadership!

    Consensus is always the preferred approach in the Church. Anything else risks being divisive, including at the Episcopate level. If the unconvincing arguments presented by proponents of unity under BOR are any indication, it will be very difficult to obtain consensus for our abandoning the OCA to subject ourselves to BOR rule. No, phyletism doesn’t cut it as an argument…


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leave me not with the spirit of laziness,
of despair, of domination, or idle words.

Rather, give me, your servant, the spirit of integrity,
of humility, of patience, and of love.

Thus, Lord, grant me the wisdom to see my own faults,
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Our Father, who are in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come.
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Give us this day
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