Romanian Orthodox for Enquiry in America

RoeaNews.info


Guardians of the Vatra


Orthodox Brotherhood Documents

ROAA/BOR Documents


“Unity in Our Time”

Author: Metropolitan Jonah
November 1, 2009
icon51
LIGONIER, PA (OCA Communications, as found on www.oca.org) — His Beatitude, Metropolitan Jonah took part in the “Road to Unity” conference sponsored by Orthodox Christian Laity (OCL) at Antiochian Village here Thursday, October 29 through Saturday, October 31. In his address to conference participants, titled “Unity in Our Time,” Metropolitan Jonah spoke of Orthodox Christian unity in North America, envisioning the creation of “a united territorial autocephalous Orthodox Church in North America, embracing all Orthodox Christians, with a single Synod and single hierarchy”.

“This new American Orthodox Church would have its own primate, and entirely govern its own affairs,” Metropolitan Jonah continued, adding that it “must respect the great diversity of languages and traditions, and the different historical origins and processes that have produced each community.”Central to the fabric of a united Church, Metropolitan Jonah added, is the need to “be missionary in every aspect of its existence, reaching out to bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ in all its patristic and Orthodox integrity to the peoples of North America, incarnating the Orthodox Church in North America, and enculturating North Americans into Orthodoxy. “Each [North American] church, jurisdiction, and community has done this to its own degree, individually,” Metropolitan Jonah observed. “Now we must put it all together, keeping in mind the essential goal of the sanctification of our people, our communities, our nations. Each community has something of utmost value to offer to the whole. Each community has come into existence in America through tremendous struggle, hardship and sacrifice. All this has to be taken into account, valued, sanctified.”Metropolitan Jonah opined that Church unity is rooted in the bonds of personal relationships.”The challenge is simply to be together: to work together, to pray together, and for our children to grow up together, our seminarians to study and pray together, and our people to marry one another,” Metropolitan Jonah stated. “There is a gradual process of integration that will take generations, and will eventually result in a completely unique American Orthodoxy. But what is necessary now is to discern how to come together so that these other processes can take root.”

Metropolitan Jonah observed that a “new phase in the development of this American Church” is underway. “This transitional period will be characterized, not by SCOBA, but by Episcopal Assemblies and their executive council, as charted out by the Chambesy Preconciliar Conference,” Metropolitan Jonah said. “But, it is a transition that will lead us, as quickly as possible, to our goal of a united autocephalous American Church.”  “SCOBA was unable to realize such a church on its own,” Metropolitan Jonah said, “as SCOBA is not itself a canonical entity… Thus, a transitional phase in which the various churches retain their ties, and their identities, and yet, can begin the process of integration, was necessary. The Chambesy accords make this possible.”

Regarding the Orthodox Church in America, Metropolitan Jonah stated that, “The OCA is the forerunner of the new autocephalous American Church. We have an important role to play as the one ecclesial body in this land that has become fully indigenous and has tried to incarnate unity in diversity in a catholic vision.”  He also shared his belief that the OCA needs, “to cooperate with [the Chambesy] process. It is an opportunity to realize that, which is the core vision of the OCA in the first place, and to go beyond it.”  “The creation of canonical unity in America can be accomplished quickly, if we are all of good will, and determined to do it,” Metropolitan Jonah said. “The great challenge will be how to respect the diversity of traditions, and nurture it, while at the same time creating a flexible structure that will also nurture missions and outreach to the various populations of North America.”

Other key points raised by Metropolitan Jonah were the following.

  • “Perhaps the most pressing issue in the resolution of how to come to unity is the question of conciliarity… What is obvious to me is that we will need to provide institutions for the clergy and laity to have a voice in the life of the Church, to contribute meaningfully to decisions, and to participate in leadership.”
  • “While the Exarch of the Ecumenical See may have chairmanship over the Episcopal Assembly, it will be extremely important to transition to a freely elected chairman perhaps even before full autocephaly… For Americans, it is the election that gives legitimacy to the office holder.”
  • “While we might argue that [the Orthodox jurisdictions of North America] were not included in [the Chambesy] discussions, the papers themselves contain an acceptable process that we can use during this transition. This is simply a process, and we can make the best out of it. It will take us to our goal. But we have to make sure that we stay on course.”
  • “We might also argue that the presidency of this Episcopal Assembly, and its executive committee, was given as a kind of right pertaining to the Exarch of the See of Constantinople. To argue against this, however, misses the point that only the Ecumenical Patriarchate has the responsibility and authority in the Orthodox world to call together the other Churches, and in such meetings he presides, or his representative.
  • “While some would argue this is an imposed solution by the Phanar, I think we can see this as an opportunity. Someone has to chair these meetings. Once we accept the challenge in the Chambesy documents themselves, that a canonical order be worked out, and that this is to be done as quickly as possible, another order could be decided upon.”

Since the announcement of the decision at the Fourth Preconcilair meeting in Chambesy, the issue of Orthodox Christian unity in North America has been the topic of much discussion among hierarchs, clergy and faithful here.  Recently, His All Holiness, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew, discussed the Chambesy statement at a meeting with SCBOA hierarchs during his current visit to the United States…

25 Comments to ““Unity in Our Time””


  1. George Patsourakos Says:

    as posted on orthodoxdetroit.com ‘St. Andrew House Forum regarding: ‘Orthodox bishops in America are now free to use the A-word’

    It is a good sign that Orthodox bishops in America are finally free to speak of autocephaly, or a self-governing Orthodox Church that does not need to answer to an authority overseas.

    Hopefully, this will be an important prelude for starting a hierarchical dialogue soon that will lead to a united American Orthodox Church.

    One of the many advantages of a united American Orthodox Church is that such a Church will have a greater impact in achieving Orthodox goals than the current fragmentary system based on ethnicity.


  2. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    “It is at least worth noting that roughly 2/3 of all Orthodox Christians in America are already united — under the Ecumenical Patriarchate.” Well, since they must be members of [Patriarch Bartholemew’s] “diaspora,” they should all go back to Istanbul and fortify a church with maybe 500 people!


  3. Sophia Weisheit Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    This whole thing has nothing to do with such lofty ideals as being Apostolic or following the canons. Those are all pious sounding smoke screens which are meant to cloud the real issues of money, power, and ego. The Patriarchate is barley larger than an average US shopping mall, and without money from America the EP could suddenly find himself powerless and part of the “diaspora”. I’ve never had a pope, never needed a pope, never wanted a pope, and I don’t plan on submitting to one.


  4. Anonymous Says:

    1) If there is a desire of an American Orthodox church where is the desire to help this process come to life? It seems to me that a lot of people want this, including myself, but forget the fact that there are a lot obstacles, until what we want, have to first be accomplished… Standards have to first be met. For one, more Bishops, more American Priests, more theological schools to train these priests. Let's stop looking to force things and blaming the Ecumenical Patriarch.

     

    2) … I've read a lot on this site and in a way the ethnocentric arguments have some truth to them… We want an American Orthodox church, but we don't produce any American Priests. A good part of our children don't even go to church, or by that manner, even marry Orthodox spouses. I am a middle aged American born of Romanian Descent, and am all for an American Orthodox church, but we cannot achive this if all we do is use clergy from abroad or members that FIRST, call themselves Romanian, Ukrainian,etc. We need [church books]… in English…

     

    3) Let's look first to get our kids to come to church, who I am convinced don't come to church just because part of the service is in Romanian. They do not come because: 1-They do not have enough Romanian Orthodox religous education; 2-They have married a non-orthodox spouse; 3-Their parents did not go to church, or were not very involved in as much as his/her child to grow with a Orthodox church mindset. There are many other reasons. But I mention this because I've read that we need an American Orthodox Church for the future of our children. But as of right now, many of our children do not even care about our church. 

     

    4) … We have to admit, Orthodxy in America is kept on it's feet, of course first by the mercy of God, but also by the members who "are not" first American, but first Greek, Russian, etc. If their children are born here, many are not activ members, and so I say, where is the future? … Let's not use what we have from others, from abroad, but creat our own here on american soil… These are, what I think, we should concentrate on, and not blaming the Ecumenical Patriarch for things we as church in America should be doing and accomplishing, so that he can give that ok for an "American Orthodox Church."…


  5. Administrator Says:

    1) Dear Anonymous, WAKE UP! an American Orthodox Church already exists – it’s called the OCA! (Almost verbatim of what +Jonah told the Old World Patriarchs) What, more Bishops here? There are almost a dozen active Bishops in the OCA and well over 60 Bishops in North America, all ethnic churches combined. More priests? We have more Orthodox priests than parishes in which to send them. They have started competing for limited places. In some places it’s getting silly. More training and more American born priests? Of course. Are we ready to pull everyone together under one umbrella? Of course we are!

     

    2) The American Orthodox Church is territorial and it is about time Old World Patriarchates understand that we are capable of being left to our own devices. We may be polite but we do not at all appreciate their meddling in our internal affairs. E.g. BOR belongs in Romania, not here.

     

    3) You also want our kids to come to Church? Then transform it from YOUR church to THEIR church, from a church they will soon perceive as a foreign ethnic ghetto church, to an American church where our children could grow in Orthodoxy along with other AMERICAN kids. Sunday schools are a start, but services in English are a must. Have the kids socialize together around the church and they just might kindle life-long friendships. Above all, make the church and environs a place where THEY feel comfortable, where the priests and bishops communicate with them in English and where things are done the American way – their way.

     

    4) Orthodoxy in America is most definitely kept alive by those who built and maintain the parishes, i.e. those brought up to contribute regularly to the Church, those who have up to 5 generation roots in America. This makes sense because those coming from Eastern Europe after 1990 have no tradition of giving to the Church. In their countries the Church is financially sustained by the State. Not here. In America there is separation of State and Church, and the church lives and grows only because of the financial support of its members. Anything else is simply untrue. The proof is seen in every large and existing parish across the continent. If there is money coming in to our churches from abroad, ask yourselves WHY? Christian charity or political prowess?


  6. Anonymous Says:

    Deocamdata, nu se pot face compromisur in parohiii; de exemplu sa incercam sa acomodam 20-30 de tineri care oricum nu ii intereseaza de Biserica si sa sacrificam 500 de membrii Romani care fac parte din parohie…

    … Iara daca sunt in America atatea ierarhi cati spuneti dmv, atunci dece nu apartin OCA? Dece sunt impotriva lui OCA? …

    … Daca “facem dezbinare in Episcopie,” in Biserica lui Hristos din anumite motive si agende personale, atunci vom avea de raspuns in fata lui Dumnezeu.


  7. Administrator Says:

    Anonymous, spuneti sa nu acomodam tinerii in Biserica? Biserica traieste numai daca are un viitor! Ce fel de crestin este Anonymous? Cine spune ca nu se pot face amandoua, adica sa acomodam si pe parintii noi veniti si pe copii? Va rugam, putina buna vointa, cel putin in Biserica lui Christos.

    Nu toti ortodocsii din America de Nord apartin de OCA. E.g., ortodocsii de origine greceasca de aici au traditia sa ramana supusi Patriarhiei Ecumenice, si nu de Grecia, si in asa fel suporta financiar Patriarhia Ecumenica. Totusi, nu este unanimitate in aceasta formula mai ales printre cei nascuti aici, in America de Nord. In plus, Patriarhia Antiohiana este suportata financiar de fideli din America de Nord, dar si ei discuta sa gaseasca o formula cu OCA. Se mai discuta si de formarea unei alte Biserici Ortodoxe Americane, mai inclusiva. Aceasta idee a fost chiar propusa de Mitropolitul OCA-ului, Jonah. Totusi, situatia Bisericilor din Europa de Est este cu totul alta. In timpul comunismului, guvernele respective, folosindu-se de aceste Biserici “Mame”, au incercat sa controleze opinia publica din afara granitelor, si au creat Episcopii paralele ca sa creeze confuzie si dezbinare. Astazi, aceste creatii politice, in loc sa dispara, vor ca sa ne unim cu ele. Bisericile din Europa de Est au creat platforme politice din Bisericile sub mana lor si acum acele Biserici “Mame” vor sa elimine adevarul si sa justifice pacatele facute rescriind astfel istoria. OCA este acel loc unde Rusii, Romanii, Bulgarii, Albanezii, ortodocsi liberi au gasit adapost de la mana rosie de peste ocean. Ca Biserica, noi am crescut si am evoluat separat si astazi OCA-ul este Mama noastra. Nu uitati, fiecare a avut de ales cand a venit in America de Nord, sau ROEA-OCA sau ROAA-BOR. De ce ati intrat in OCA, cand preferati BOR? Oare v-a trimis cineva sa faceti dezbinare in Episcopia noastra? Sa va fie rusine daca asa este! Problema este simpla. Cui nu ii convine sa ramana in ROEA-OCA, nu are decat sa mearga la ROAA-BOR, unde isi va gasi locul.

    Deci, revenind la situatia noastra, dezbinarea se face de cei care vor sa rupa ROEA de OCA. ROEA este in OCA si asa ati gasit-o. Cei veniti din Romania au avut de ales intre ROEA-OCA si ROAA-BOR. Daca nu le convine unora alegerea facuta, acele persoane nu au decat sa plece la ROAA-BOR, lasandu-ne pe noi in pace. Putem chiar cere explicatii. Dece ati intrat la noi? Ati fost sau sunteti pusi ca sa ne faceti probleme in ROEA? Care este interesul vostru agatandu-va de noi si aducandu-ne sub papucul Bucurestiului? Ce agende aveti sau ce ordine primiti … se mai poate asa ceva? Desigur… Cine plateste - comanda?


  8. Toma Says:

    1)Arguments in favor of OCA autocephaly … [LIST]
    Arguments against OCA autocephaly … [LIST]
    The reason I thought appropriate to list these arguments is because I have read throughout this website and noticed a number of arguments made on canonicity…

    2)If we as Orthodox Christians want orthodox unity here on American Soil, in the USA, we must first attempt (and succeed) to achieve unity beyond the American borders. We, here in the United States, have so many ethnicitys; so many orthodox jurisdictions. We have to face the fact that we are very much influenced by “the need for unity beyond our borders (support and recognition from all Orthodox nations”). There is a mandatory need for the OCA, before it can flourish here in America, to obtain it’s recognition as an autocephalous from all of the other world’s Orthodox Churches… Orthodoxy is about unity… We must first search to abtaining “unity” (recognition from all the world churches) before we can achieve unity here in the USA…

    3)… There is separation amongst Romanians in the USA….and with this know we want to suddenly form the “American orthodox church.” Even the Russians are divided here in the US! We must first achieve unity each one of us, in our own jurisdictions, before we can achieve ‘unity as a whole”… We as romanians, part of the OCA, cannot ask that other episcopate join and unite with us under OCA, [until the OCA is recognized by all Orthodoxy - atata timp cat OCA nu este recunoscuta de tot restul Ortodoxiei]…

    4)[… For the time being… we must unite the nation with our mother nation, with our mother church. After this unity, after establishing juridically, and after other jurisdictions do the same, only then can we move towards an “official” American Orthodox Church…] - … Deocamdata … trebuie sa ne unim natiunea cu natiunea noastra mama, cu biserica noastra mama. Dupa ce ne unim, dupa ce stabilim juridic pe continentul american, la fel si celelalte jurisdictii, numai apoi putem misca spre o biserica ortodoxa americana “officiala”…

    5)… These were just some thoughts and facts which I find absolutly necessary for each of us to understand. Our goal is the same. But we must achieve that goal starting from the bottom up. We are a young church here in the US. Lets not assume that our freedom of speech can give us the right to do whatever we please in the church. [Otherwise] “daca ne facem de cap” we will become just another protestant church in the United States.


  9. Administrator Says:

    1) Toma, you list an extensive series of arguments for and against OCA autocephaly and then comment them because you “noticed a number of arguments made on canonicity… throughout this website…” ? Your lists and comments have been heavily edited because in them you falsely confuse the OCA’s canonicity with its’ having or not having an accepted autocephaly, and then you deflect that issue into a long debate on what constitutes the declaration and the acceptance of an autocephalous church in Orthodoxy. This site is not about to fall for this type of circuitous argumentation. Understand that the complicated issue of Autocephaly in the universal Orthodox Church has long been and still is without unanimous resolution. At this time, it is being again debated in Chambesy by Orthodox theologians and we will leave that debate until at least the Orthodox Bishops Assembly in America meet in May 2010 in America and add their comments. One thing is clear in all this. The majority of Orthodox Christians worldwide agree that the OCA is Autocephalous. In fact, even those churches that claim the OCA is not Autocephalous, accept it is an Autonomous Church. However, and more importantly, ALL CANONICAL ORTHODOX HIERARCHS AND PRIESTS SERVE HOLY LITURGY WITH OCA HIERARCHS AND PRIESTS, MEANING THAT THE LATTER ARE CANONICAL. (Again, read Erickson for personal edification.) Acceptance of Autocephaly is one thing and acceptance of Canonicity is another. You cannot confuse them to develop or support your weak argument. E.g. Romanian Autocephaly was declared unilaterally by Bucharest in 1872 and the Romanian Patriarchate was recognized only 53 years later by Universal Orthodoxy and Constantinople. However, during that time, no one questioned BOR’s Canonicity. TODAY, THE OCA MAY NOT HAVE UNANIMITY IN THE ACCEPTANCE OF ITS AUTOCEPHALY, BUT ITS CANONICITY IS UNQUESTIONED. Joining with such a Church is thus an entirely Canonical thing to do. It seems better than being under Old World churches who know nothing of us here. It can be argued that the OCA is the best Orthodox and North American solution we presently have. If an improved version of the OCA is the result of subsequent Chambesy-type meetings and Episcopal Assemblies like the one in May 2010, then our OCA Metropolitan Jonah will certainly lead us there; he has already said as much!

    2) An American Orthodox Church exists in North America, and the OCA is the closest thing we have to an “American” church. Will all Orthodoxy ever allow for an American Patriarchate is a good question without a good answer given the financial and political links America offers. We hope and pray that future Chambesy’s might generate a unanimous solution but, in any event, the OCA is the closest structure we now have in fulfilling the need for an American Patriarchate. Whether or not this will be the OCA itself or another structure, it is clear that the OCA will be in the centre of the activity. Why? Because it is the only church grouping in North America that has been created to fulfill this dream. All others are based on non-Orthodox premises like phyletism.

    3) We now begin to see the dark logic being woven here again. STEP 1 - Leave the OCA. STEP 2 - Go back under BOR. STEP – 3 Somehow this allows us to build a stronger American Orthodox Church? Here we go again. “We live in Detroit but want to drive to New York. Let’s go via the shortest route which is via Los Angeles! Right?” Both examples are equally ridiculous! So, if this one won’t work let’s try another. We “… cannot ask that other episcopate join and unite with us under OCA, until the OCA is recognized by all Orthodoxy…” However, what Toma fails to say is: THE OCA IS RECOGNIZED CANONICALLY AS AT LEAST AN AUTONOMOUS CHURCH BY ALL ORTHODOXY. So, if the proponents of unity under BOR have no argument to convince us to abandon the OCA and go under BOR, they revert to CIRCUITOUS LOGIC or better still, out and out LIES. Surely, these will convince us…

    4) What does this mean … “we must unite the nation with our mother nation, with our mother church”? Toma, don’t fall into the same trap as poor Mihai and poor Anna. Commenting the article entitled “History of ROEA-BOR Split” they both referred to the nation church on December 4, 2009. Let me explain to you as I did to them. A nation refers to a country, not a religion. Romania is a country and Orthodoxy in Romania is represented by BOR. America is also a country and Orthodoxy in America is represented by the OCA or until a new, American Patriarchate – Chambesy driven, is recognized by universal Orthodoxy. Sorry, those Bishops from the Old World have only succeeded in muddying our waters here in the New World, and the OCA is the best we’ve got! So the proponents of Unity under BOR continue to repeat the same line without justification, i.e., 1- leave the OCA, 2- go under BOR and 3- then you can have a recognized OCA! PLEASE? Do you really think we are that naive? Where’s the beef? All we get is Circular Logic or Lies!

    5) How dare you say “Our goal is the same…” ? From 1950, the Romanian Government and BOR’s goal has been to take over the ROEA, now the last free Romanian Orthodox church left in the World. Prior to this year, the “Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of Western Europe” headquartered in Paris, France, was also a free Romanian Orthodox Episcopate, but now it has fallen under BOR control and its history has already been re-written! It will not take too long for BOR to do the same with the ROEA. Our forefathers fought for Truth and Justice and it is incumbent upon us to protect the Truth and leave an unblemished Church for our children. Only in this way will our prayers have any meaning. Let history be rewritten on someone else’s watch. Let our children be proud Orthodox Christians here, in North America. Let Truth and decency prevail.


  10. Mihai Says:

    Hai luam fiecare Parohie in parte si sa vedem cine suporta ce. Cati romani de prima generatie sunt in biserica si cati de a doua, a treia?…


  11. Viorel Says:

    Se vede ca nu vreti sa intelegeti. Chiar daca situatia nu este cum o descrieti mai sus, problema tineretului in Biserica ne preocupa foarte mult. Dar daca avem probleme cu lipsa tineretului din biserica, de ce vreti sa repetati aceleasi greseli care s-au facut in trecut? De ce nu incercam sa invatam din trecut ca sa putem corija situatia de astazi, ca maine sa fie Biserica plina de tineri? Nu! Vreti cu Bucuresti, fiindca - vreti cu Bucuresti. Cine stie de ce… Vreti numai cu BOR? Atunci de ce ati intrat in REOA-OCA? Totusi, nici acum, nimeni nu va opreste sa mergeti la ROAA-BOR, dar lasati-ne pe noi din OCA-ROEA in pace! Noi dorim sa facem din aceasta Biserica una vie, plina de tineret si copii nostri – ortodocsi. Pozitia Dv. nu este de inteles, doar numai din comoditate sau interes.


  12. Toma Says:

    Domnule Administrator,please post ALL of what was written by me, not just fragments. You took out 50% of my posting.

    (You don’t like that the truth be exposed? Is that it?) Nu va place adevarul sa fie expus? Asai? (I see you are one-sided,) Vad ca suntet-ti one-sided, but it will catch up!


  13. Admininsrator Says:

    Toma, on this site, as on most other similar sites, the site Administration reserves the right to edit for repetition, insults, falsehoods and circular argumentation which leads nowhere but to confusion. As explained in our December 13, 2009 response to your comment: “Your lists and comments have been heavily edited because in them you falsely confuse the OCA’s canonicity with its’ having or not having an accepted autocephaly, and then you deflect that issue into a long debate on what constitutes the declaration and the acceptance of an autocephalous church in Orthodoxy. This site is not about to fall for this type of circuitous argumentation. Understand that the complicated issue of Autocephaly in the universal Orthodox Church has long been and still is without unanimous resolution. At this time, it is being again debated in Chambesy by Orthodox theologians and we will leave that debate to them until at least the Orthodox Bishops Assembly in America meet in May 2010 in America and add their comments.” Toma, let’s keep this unity under BOR debate fair, without attempting to create false impressions to support a given position. That type of false argumentation will not be tolerated here.

    Toma, we want the Truth to be exposed on this site, so please constrain yourself to it in future. Also, your “one-sided” accusation is unsupported, and your veiled threat that “… it will catch up!…” should have been edited out, but I left it for all to see.


  14. Fact check Says:

    In Biserica nu exista DEMOCRATIE ci IERARHIE, cu un cap absolute care este Iisus Hristos. Cine vrea Democratie sa mearga la biserica protestanta, punct.


  15. Admininsrator Says:

    Fact Check, ce vrei sa spui? Ascultare oarba fara limite, nu este crestineste si nici ortodox. In schimb, responsabilitatea morala este o obligatie atat pentru cler, cat si pentru laici, care impreuna reprezinta Trupul lui Hristos, adica Biserica.


  16. Toma Says:

    Mr. Administrator, if you want the truth to be said then let the truth to be posted. What I posted was completely relevant and it had to do with the OCA, with canonicity, supporting arguments for why we should join out Mother church ‘BOR’, and leave ‘OCA.’ The only reason you did not post it, is because you are afraid of the truth. This just proves my point, and many other people out there who share my opinion, that this site is a one sided argument site, which does not post everything for the simple fact that: it’s administrator is afraid for people to truly understand everything which is going on. But don’t worry. [In life we never escape from what causes our fears and what is true.] In viata niciodata nu scapam de ce ne este frica si mai ales de ce este adevarat.


  17. Admininsrator Says:

    Toma, the essence of your posting is on the website and can be fouynd in the Comments section regarding the “Unity in Our Time” article, #8, Dec. 13, 2009.

    Toma, as well as responding to your comments on a point by point basis, we explained to you in our Dec.13, 2009 response to your comments and then again reiterated this to you in our Dec.27, 2009 response, that on this site, we reserve “the right to edit for repetition, insults, falsehoods and circular argumentation which leads nowhere but to confusion”.

    If you have an argument in support of our leaving the OCA to go under BOR, which is not based on falsehoods or unorthodox concepts, we will definitely post them here. Unhappily, you have yet to produce even one.

    Everything presented so far in support of revolting against the OCA and going under BOR is based on phyletism, a concept focussed on ethnicity, long excluded by Orthodoxy, or on false claims about OCA canonicity.

    By the way Toma, are you a member of the ROEA? If you are, how can you be, if the diocese you belong to is part of the OCA- a church you claim to be uncanonical? Really!


  18. Mihai Says:

    What I posted were facts, facts that you refuse to post, because it proves all your arguments wrong.

    Da cum am zis: de ce ti-e frica nu scapi. (As I said: you can’t escape from what you are afraid.)


  19. Admininsrator Says:

    Mihai, we do keep copies of ALL that is sent here. The essence of your comment to “Unity in our Time” WAS posted on Dec. 14, 2009. “Hai sa luam fiecare Parohie in parte si sa vedem cine suporta ce? Cati romani de prima generatie sunt in biserica si cati de a doua, a treia?…” (Let us take each parish on its own and see who supports what. How many first generation Romanians are in church and how many 2nd, 3rd, ?…) What was edited out of your comment was your unsubstantiated conclusion that mostly first generation Romanians fill and financially support each of our Episcopate churches. What you conveniently overlook are the many older parishes and parishes with converts, where 2nd – 5th generation Romanian-American families and American families continue to financially support the church and be the most active in the parish. This is because they are used to the fact that the church in America exists only through their donations and hard work, unlike many first generation Romanians, who still believe that Church maintenance and the clergy salaries are paid for by the State, as it is in the Romanian Patriarchate churches. First generation Romanians, who settled in communities where older Romanian-American families did not exist, quickly found out that if they wanted a church, they had to rent or build it themselves. This group of more recent immigrants are an exception, in that they did not benefit from existing churches built and maintained by the 2nd – 5th generation group, although the latter group continues to help fund new missions in the Episcopate.

    Mihai, your second paragraph in the above comment is strange indeed: You address the Administrator and pronounce “As I said: you can’t escape from what you are afraid.” I am sorry. It was not you who wrote that to the Administrator, but Toma, on Jan. 19, 2010, comment #16. Are you two in cahoots?


  20. Toma Says:

    My argument for leaving OCA was listed LOUD AND CLEAR. But because you did not like that argument, because it was too true and precise from every aspect, you, Mr. Administrator, refused to post it. And I am not the only one. You did this with many others.


  21. Admininsrator Says:

    As mentioned in our Jan. 22, 2010 response to you regarding the “American Metropolitanate” article, and as previously mentioned to you in our response of Jan. 20, 2010 to your repeated request that we publish ALL your comment regarding the “Unity in our Time” article, remember that the essence of your original posting is on the website and can be found in the Comments section regarding the “Unity in Our Time” article, #8, Dec. 13, 2009. Toma, as well as responding to your comments on a point by point basis, we explained to you in our Dec.13, 2009 response to your comments and then again reiterated this to you in our Dec.27, 2009 response, that on this site, we reserve “the right to edit for repetition, insults, falsehoods and circular argumentation which leads nowhere but to confusion”.
    Repeating lies does not make them true. Only in totalitarian systems like Communism is there any credence given to the concept that a LIE repeated becomes the TRUTH. In real democracies, we laugh at such childish behaviour! However, Toma, your repetitions are now out of hand. Stop!
    So, we repeat again, if you do have arguments in support of our leaving the OCA to go under BOR, which are not based on falsehoods or unorthodox concepts, we will definitely post them here. Unhappily, you have yet to produce even one. Arguments based on phyletism or those based on false claims do not count.
    Toma, why don’t you answer our questions? Let me repeat one for the second time. “how, in all good conscience, could anyone remain in the ROEA/OCA, while at the same time claiming that it is an uncanonical church? What kind of an Orthodox Christian would willingly attend an uncanonical Church? So, clearly, something else must motivate this anti-OCA and pro-BOR behaviour. What gives?


  22. Toma Says:

    Not posting comments shows you are hiding the truth. What was posted were facts not insults, and if “those facts” insult the OCA, so be it! But you don’t have a problem with posting comments which insult BOR do you!

    Unde e dreptatea? Va spun eu. Nu pe acest site! (Where is justice? I’ll tell you. Not on this site!)


  23. Admininsrator Says:

    You may repeat your mantra all you want. Repeating it doesn’t make it right. But you must stop it with the insults. The reason for our position has been stated many times now. Enough.


  24. Dr. GBP Says:

    Toma. When I read your comments, I feel as though I am in the cereal aisle at the grocery store watching a little kid having a temper tantrum because his mother won’t buy him Captain Crunch. I understand that Romanian’s came to this country to seek freedom and you haven’t had that for a long time in Romania.

    Just put the shoe on the other foot for a minute. How would it go over if you had a large migration of American’s to Romania and suddenly, we wanted to take over your churches and change the status from belonging to the Romanian Patriarch and demanding that your churches join the American Episcopate because there were many Americans attending your churches. How would you feel? Have some consideration for the American-born who are true patriots to this country as you are to your country.

    What is stopping you from rejoining a church under the Romanian jurisdiction? What’s stopping anyone? This country is all about choice. No one is telling you that you can’t live in this country and be a member of the Mother church. There are many churches under the auspices of the Romanian Patriarch that you can belong to. Then, don’t take away our freedom of choice and let us have our choice of Romanian American churches that may stay under the OCA. There is something called Romanian-American and I am one of them. To ignore either part of myself would be an identity crisis. You want us to ignore that side of ourselves, and that is not fair.


  25. Dr. GBP Says:

    Christos a inviat! Adevarat a Inviat! Christ Is Risen! Truly He Is Risen!
    What more could we ask for?


Leave a Comment;

E-Mail addresses will not be displayed and will only be used for e-mail notifications.
Not all of your comments are necessarily displayed on this website.
Comments are not necessarily those of RoeaNews.info.



ROEANews.info is the website of "Romanian Orthodox for Enquiry in America" and is not affiliated with the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America (ROEA) or with the Orthodox Church in America (OCA).

PRAYER OF ST. EPHREM

O Lord and Master of my life,
leave me not with the spirit of laziness,
of despair, of domination, or idle words.

Rather, give me, your servant, the spirit of integrity,
of humility, of patience, and of love.

Thus, Lord, grant me the wisdom to see my own faults,
and not condemn my brother;

for You are blessed, now and forever. Amen.



OUR FATHER

Our Father, who are in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day
our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.