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Ec. Patriarch & US Primates

Author: Patriarch (Patriarhul) Bartholemew
October 28, 2009
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PATRIARCH BARTHOLEMEW MEETS WITH THE ORTHODOX PRIMATES OF THE USA

NEW YORK - (Ecumenical Patriarchate News Release, as found on www.patriarchate.org:) His All Holiness, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew gave an audience yesterday Tuesday, Oct. 27, to the Orthodox Primates of the USA… Present at the audience were Archbishop Demetrios of America (Greek Orthodox Archdiocese); Metropolitan Philip (Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese); Metropolitan Christopher (Serbian Orthodox Archdiocese); Metropolitan Nicholas (Carpatho- Russian Diocese); Archbishop Nicolae (Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese); Metropolitan Jonah (Orthodox Church in America), Metropolitan Constantine (Ukrainian Orthodox Church in the USA); Bishop Ilia (Albanian Orthodox Diocese) and Archpriest Alexander Abramov (Representation of the Moscow Patriarchate in the USA). Archbishop Demetrios welcomed His All Holiness on behalf of the Primates. The remarks of His All Holiness follow:

“We bring to you the greeting, the blessing, and the love of the Apostolic, Patriarchal and Ecumenical Throne of the First-Called Andrew, and we express as well our appreciation to the Most Reverend Chairman of the Standing Conference of the Canonical Orthodox Bishops in the Americas, His Eminence Archbishop Demetrios of America, for bringing you together today so that we may have this opportunity for fellowship in the Holy Spirit and for a dialogue of love.”For nearly fifty years, the Standing Conference has served as a place for the Primates of the various jurisdictions that are present in North America to gather and discuss common concerns and issues. Also, through the many agencies that have been formed under your aegis, you have been able to activate pan-Orthodox ministries that extend beyond the confines of your particular Churches, so that your united effort might be brought to bear in common interests.  The success of SCOBA has always been based in the true sense of cooperation, of synergy, between the Orthodox ecclesiastical entities here in North America. You have been successful at providing a common witness to all the Orthodox Faithful, even as you have maintained your ties to the Mother Churches and sought to establish yourselves in the countries and culture within which you live.  Nevertheless, SCOBA has always been an organization that lacks authorization from the Mother Churches, being a self-started and volunteer body. This reality reflects both strengths and weaknesses - strengths in that SCOBA was free to find creative solutions to issues and problems, without seeking approval from a higher authority - and weaknesses, because without authorization from the Mother Churches, there has been no methodology to effectuate decisions and policies that prepare for the future.”

“Given these considerations, it was logical for the status quo to evolve, as it did at the Synaxis of the Heads of the universally recognized Autocephalous Churches last October at the Ecumenical Patriarchate. At that time, the common will of the universally recognized Autocephalous was expressed as follows:

As Primates and the Representatives of the Most Holy Orthodox Churches, fully aware of the gravity of the aforementioned problems, and laboring to confront them directly as “servants of Christ and stewards of God’s mysteries” (1 Cor. 4:1), we proclaim from this See of the First-throne among the Churches and we re-affirm:

i) our unswerving position and obligation to safeguard the unity of the Orthodox Church in “the faith once for all delivered to the saints” (Jude 3), the faith of our Fathers, in the common Divine Eucharist and in the faithful observance of the canonical system of Church governance by settling any problems that arise from time to time in relations among us with a spirit of love and peace.

ii) our desire for the swift healing of every canonical anomaly that has arisen from historical circumstances and pastoral requirements, such as in the so-called Orthodox Diaspora, with a view to overcoming every possible influence that is foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology. In this respect we welcome the proposal by the Ecumenical Patriarchate to convene Panorthodox Consultations within the coming year 2009 on this subject, as well as for the continuation of preparations for the Holy and Great Council.”

“As you all know and are well aware, the Fourth Pre-Conciliar Pan-Orthodox Conference did take place in June of this year, at the Center of the Ecumenical Patriarchate in Chambésy, Switzerland. The Decision, and the Regulations promulgated by the Pre-Conciliar Conference establish a modus operandi by which the Bishops, in the regions of the world defined by the Conference, may progress institutionally toward the solutions that we all seek in the forthcoming Great and Holy Council. This is not to say that there will not be difficulties along the way. The region defined for this portion of the Western Hemisphere is quite extensive, including Spanish-speaking Mexico and Central America, together with the rest of Anglophone and Francophone North America. There are many bishops who have never been represented in SCOBA, and who will now participate through their Mother Churches in the Assembly of Bishops. There are also the issues of so-called “autonomies” and “autocephalies” that are not recognized by the Church Universal, and for which solutions must be found in order allow for full participation on every level in the processes of the Assembly of Bishops. All of the issues and problems that require resolution first require willing hearts and minds, study and careful consideration, and the unfailing loving application of the canonical tradition of out Holy Orthodox Church.”

“As the convener of the Pan-Orthodox world, the Ecumenical Patriarchate stands ready to be of assistance through guidance and an ongoing dialogue based in the truth of Gospel. We welcome positive suggestions and, as it said in our modern world, “thinking outside the box,” so that we may construct models of ecclesiastical polity and governance with foundations sunk deep in the venerable tradition of our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church - and at the same time are relevant to the spiritual needs and societal conventions of the world within which our faithful live.  Here, we do not reference compromise nor conformity to the world, but, following the exhortation of the Holy Apostle Paul - that we be ‘transformed by the renewing of our minds,’ we speak of transformative and transformational models that are faithful to the history of the Church, for this history is that of the Holy Spirit Who infuses and guides the Church in every generation - in times of weakness and in times of strength, in times of persecution and in times of triumph, in times war and in times of peace. And in whatever time the Church finds her incarnate presence through the grace, operation and inspiration of the Holy Spirit, we know that the Church lives in accordance with the Apostle’s injunction: “that everything be done decently and in good order.”

“Therefore, beloved brothers in the Lord, let the order of the Church be observed perfectly among you, beginning and ending always with the commandment - new and divine - that we have received from our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ: Love one another. Everything else that we attempt - even with all our skill and might - will come to naught if love does not reign supreme among us all. With these words we leave each of you with our Patriarchal and paternal blessing, invoking upon you the grace of God and His infinite mercy.” …

19 Comments to “Ec. Patriarch & US Primates”


  1. George Patsourakos Says:

    as posted on orthodoxdetroit.com, St. Andrew House Discussion Forum regarding: ‘Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew’s statement on SCOBA Meeting’

    I am disappointed that Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew did not say anything about establishing a united American Orthodox Church in his address to the American Orthodox Archbishops at a SCOBA meeting this week. This being the case, the American Orthodox Archbishops need to meet themselves and draft a constitution for American Orthodox unity.

    Americans have waited long enough — too long, in fact — to establish a united American Orthodox Church, because the Patriarch of Constantinople and the motherland Patriarchs do not want to relinquish their control over them; consequently, the only way to establish a united American Orthodox Church is to break away from the Patriarch of Constantinople and the motherland patriarchs, in order to establish a united Orthodox Church. Moreover, Christ did not want His Church to be subdivided into numerous ethnic branches, but He wanted one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church


  2. Mark Stokoe Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’ – an editor’s remark to David Barrett’s comments

    … You assume, falsely, that jurisdictional unity is a matter of grave concern to most Patriarchates, and to most people. The evidence indicates it is not. Better those who want to be the Church in America be it, and let those who want to live in exile from a place they have only visited but have not intention of ever living in, do so as well. Welcoming such diversity is a very American thing to do - and allows one to savor/suffer/ watch the irony of those who most decry American culture taking full advantage of it. In the end there will be unity here. Just don’t sweat it, or rush it. Better it is done right, than quickly.


  3. David Barrett Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    I read, with trepidation, the announcement of the Ecumenical Patriarch, +Bartholomew, posted today… The reason I say “with trepidation” is because the tone of this announcement smacks of the flavor of artificially imposing Canon 28 of Chalcedon on the Orthodox in America! In other words, it sounds like a prelude to a subsequent message from +Bartholomew that might say, “Based on Canon 28 of Chalcedon, the Ecumenical Patriarch is directly over all the churches in the Diaspora! Therefore, the autocephaly of the OCA is invalid!” I pray this is not what will be coming down the pike! It goes against the ecclesiological theology of our Church, down through the centuries!


  4. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    David: You know the answer to your own concerns or were you sleeping in Erickson’s classes?
    Jesus Christ sent His Apostles into all the world to establish the Church. Wherever the disciples went, they established “local” churches with their own bishops to run their own churches. This is the “model” set up by Christ. As you know, there are even Canons condemning bishops not of a local territory interfering with churches not under them. What do you think Chambesy is? It is +Bart and the “old country” patriarchs trying to rule over the world - a typical RC idea.

    Regarding the OCA being “invalid,” this is RC terminology. Is it ONLY +Bart who has authority to grant autocephaly? Is ONLY he the keeper and decider of who is in the Church and who isn’t? Does “grace” ONLY flow from +Bart and is he the keeper of the Holy Spirit? Again, this is an RC idea. So, does Orthodoxy throughout the world allow +Bart impose his RC model of the Church upon everyone or do we being “followers of the Truth” follow what Christ and His Apostles taught?


  5. Fr. Igumen Philip (Speranza) Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    Dear David, You would have done better to say that you fear Patriarch Bartholomew would try to impose HIS INTERPRETATION of Canon 28 of the 4th. It is only since the time of Patriarch Meletios, in the 1920’s, that the Phanar has tried to sell this rather strained and twisted understanding of Canon 28; so this is just another innovation, to be rejected vigorously. Further, it is unlikely our Holy Synod and/or AAC would submit to such nonsense. And if the Phanar does make the proclamation you fear, so what? It is unlikely Moscow and its friends will acquiesce; so we will not be totally isolated. And we’ve already been through periods of being called “uncanonical” by the Greeks, who then refused to serve with us. But here we are. And if it pleases God to preserve us, then our house will be of brick; and you-know-who can huff and puff his phanariote lungs out, and we’ll still be here.


  6. Anon. Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    The Patriarch speaks too many flowery, pietistic words. This is the same Patriarch that recently defrocked the godly Arch. Fr. Daniel Byantoro for doing the work of Christ in Indonesia despite Istanbul’s attempts at hegemony over the fledgling mission in Indonesia begun by Fr. Daniel.

    The longer and more flowery these Patriarchal pronouncements, the more their sincerity should be doubted. The Truth should not be confusing or hard to understand. Deception and duplicity ooze from these words. We should look to another than Istanbul for leadership on true unity. How many times in the OCA scandal have we been encouraged to do things “decently in order” by the wrongdoers? Such exhortations were simply a smokescreen for wrongdoing.


  7. Any Moose Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    Re: +Bart, Chambesy & SCOBA.

    1) SCOBA has become an arm of +BART. +Philip allowed this to happen during +Spyridon.
    2) Chambesy is just setting up North America and the world for “Ecclesiastical Colonialism” with a church very much like the RC’s. It would be non-canonical and anti-Apostolic in model & form.
    3) If the N.American hierarchs really believe +Bart is going to give them “unity” with no strings attached, I have a bridge to sell them.
    4) Considering Orthodox Canon Law condemns foreign bishops from interfering in lands not under their direct authority, NO Mother Churches have any authority in North America.
    5) If the North American bishops REALLY want unity, they should announce their independence from foreign bishops and join in an indigenous, autocephalous, canonical Orthodox Church in North America. Join in a synod of bishops already in tact where each rules their own. This church is called the OCA!
    6) Remember, King George offered the American Colonists freedom, but ONLY under him paying taxes to him and all authority coming from him. Do you REALLY think +Bart is any different?


  8. Archpriest Daniel Degyansky Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘News from around Orthodox America’

    ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS:
    I have followed the events surrounding the recent visit of His All-holiness, Bartholomew, Archbishop of Constantinople, New Rome and Ecumenical Patriarch, with great interest; particularly in the manner in which he has conducted himself. So far, I am afraid that he is a grave disappointment…

    …So it appears to me that Patriarch Bartholomew, through his actions, is giving us a clear indication in regard to his priorities. He has time for the Jesuits at Fordham University, and he has time for dinner with the Greek Ambassodor to the UN. He has NO TIME for the flock he believes should be under his omophorion, here in America. Rather, he made his appearance at a Pan-Orthodox Divine Service, only to leave thereafter. He gathered hierarchs serving here in America in order to talk down to them with proclamations and pronouncements; only to leave the room at its conclusion, delegating some other bishop to answer any questions. So - Is this REALLY the kind of “pastorship” those of us here in America can expect from Patriarch Bartholomew??

    Sounds like a real “dog-and-pony show” to me. If such is the case, count me out. May God have mercy on us!


  9. Fact Check Says:

    1) Daca suntem liberi in America, asta nu inseamna ca putem aplica aceasta libertate si in Biserica… a- Canoanele Ortodoxe, spun ca autocefalia in priviinta unei Biserici din Diaspora nu poate fi acordata fara numai decat de Patriarhia Constantinopolului… Patriarhia rusa nu a avut dreptul sa acorde autocefalia pentru o biserica din diaspora… OCA este necanonica fiind ca autocefalia sa dat de Patriarhia Rusa asa doar de capul lor… b- Patriarhia rusa, ca si orcice alta patriarhie are drepturi doar teritoriale adica doar parohiilor si arhiepiscopiilor cuprinse in granita rusiei, nu si la cele de din afara granitei… 

     

    2) … Trebuie inteles faptul ca autocefalia se acorda doar cu anumite conditii.

    a- …Episcopia respectiva trebuie sa aiba un sistem ierahic teritorial bine stabilit. Luand in seama marimea continentului americii ar trbuie sa fie cel putin 50 de Episcopii imprastiate in toata tara, cel putin una pentre ficare stat… Mai mult. b- Trebuie sa existe toate cartiile de cult traduse in limba tarii (engleza) in intregime, official… c- Trebuie un sistem ortodox, bine stabilit pentru alegerea ierahului… d- OCA, in momentul cand ii sa acordat autocefalia de catre Patriarhia Rusa, o fost departe de indeplinirea toate acestor conditii. De fapt, nici astazi nu are toate aceste conditii indeplinite… Cu toate acestea, unii tot sustin ca OCA e viitorul nostru. Gresit. OCA nu e pregatit sa merite autocefalie sau sa prezerve Ortodoxia. Hai sa ne gandim doar cati ani o trebuit poporului roman ca sa isi castige autocefalia. Dar au facut-o incet, dar in mod canonic.

     

    3) a- Deci, la un moment dat, trebuie sa se infiinteze o Patriarhie Americana, este adevarat… Trebuie facut canonic, cu rabdare si correct, in mod ortodox. Pana atunci ne vom unii canonic cu BOR, Biserica mama (si nu o spun intr-un mod racist, ci in mod realist)… b- Daca vrem Patriarhie Americana, atunci trebuie … sa producem un numar mai mare de ierarhi "americani," si … preoti americani… Nu ne putem folosi de preoti din diaspora, si sa zicem: "pai suntem Biserica Americana"…

     

    4) a- Este adevarat, Biserica Ortodoxa este locala. Asta inseamna cuvantul "autonomie!" dupa mine, si… nu inseamna ca BOR isi intinde mana peste granite. Vom fii biserica locala aici in America dar canonic apartinand de BOR. Faptul ca ne guvernam noi singuri, aici pe pamantul americii, inseamna "ca suntem biserica locala"… b- Faptul ca vom apartine de BOR, inseamna ca ne unim cu o familie mai mare, sa fim canonici…    

     

    5) Marea majoritate din aceasta Episcopie sunt romani… Ca avem parohii care apartin o buna parte de credinciosi convertiti, asta e foarte bine. Dar indemn acei credinciosi sa nu uite ca au intrat, de buna voie, intr-o Episcopie Romaneaca. Nu e corect ca majoritatea sa fie data jos pentru ca unii se simt discriminate…


  10. Administrator Says:

    “Fact Check”, ai probleme mari cu FAPTELE. Hai se le luam pe rand:

     

    1) a- Spui ca, “Canoanele Ortodoxe, spun ca autocefalia … nu poate fi acordata decat numai de Patriarhia Constantinopolului . . . [si ca] Patriarhia rusa nu a avut dreptul sa acorde autocefalia…[deci] “OCA este necanonica…” Aici nu este facultate teologica, dar sa stii ca nu ai dreptate. Spre exemplu, Biserica Ortodoxa din Georgia a primit autocefalia de la Biserica Antiohiana. Pentru educatie personala, mai bine sa-l citesti pe J. Erickson inainte de a face afirmatii false. Din moment ce ierarhi si preoti slujesc impreuna inseamna ca isi recunosc canonicitatea. E fals sa vorbiti de necanonicitate in contextual nostru. Afirmatia este ridicola in timp ce Pr. Apostola si Pr. Grama, +Nicolae si +Nathaniel slujesc impreuna. Opriti-va cu propaganda voastra.  b- Mai departe afirmati ca, “Patriarhia rusa, ca si orice alta patriarhie, are drepturi doar teritoriale adica doar parohiilor si arhiepiscopiilor cuprinse in granita rusiei, nu si la cele de din afara granitei…” MULTUMESC! ASTA SPUNEM DE MULT! Odata ce OCA a primit canonic Autocefalia pe America de Nord, “Patriarhia [Romana], ca si orice alta patriarhie, are drepturi doar teritoriale adica doar parohiilor si arhiepiscopiilor cuprinse in granita [Romaniei], nu si la cele de din afara granitei…” Deci BOR este pe teritoriu romanesc si OCA pe teritoriu American! Atentie, altceva, si iar va contraziceti…   

     

    2) a- OCA are dioceze teritoriale in America de Nord, si ar fi bine sa fie si mai multi Episcopi in acel Sinod. Dar, nu uitati, aici, guvernele nu subventioneaza bisericile, dar nici nu le conduc prin banul acordat, cum este cazul in Romania. Aici, contributia credinciosilor plateste totul. Ar fi foarte greu sa avem mult mai mult Episcopi aici pana cand toate bisericile nu se leapada de structurile bisericesti etnice, lasand in trecut legaturile cu patriarhiile din vechea lume, si unindu-se aici in Biserica Ortodoxa Americana. Atunci, situatia financiara ar determina cati Episcopi am putea avea pe acest teritoriu.  b- Sunt din ce in ce mai multe carti de cult in limba engleza, dar cate aveau majoritatea Patriarhiilor in limba lor cand au inceput? Fii serios!   c- OCA are un sistem pentru alegeri de Episcop bine definit si unde laicii au un vot, nu ca in Romania unde laicii sunt redusi la zero sau aproape de zero…  d- “Fact Check”, tu stii mai bine ce avea sau ce nu avea de  indeplinit OCA-ul cand a primit autocefalia. In orice caz, OCA este o Biserica de sine statatoare, independenta si care este canonica, vrei tu sau nu… Stim si noi putina istorie. Nu incerca sa te joci cu noi, te rog. Autocefalia romaneasca a fost declarata unilateral in 1872 si de-abia in 1925 a fost recunoscuta Patriarhia Romana de catre Constantinopol; 53 de ani mai tarziu! Intre timp ce era?

     

    3) a- Cand Biserica Ortodoxa Americana va fi canonic autocefala, atunci te unesti cu ea? De ce nu te unesti cu o Mitropolie Autonoma ce este OCA-ul, chiar in ochii Patriarhiei Ecumenice? Fii serios!  Nu vrei decat sub BOR fiindca - vrei sub BOR; “Rationamentul Circular”.  Venind in America de buna voie ai intrat in OCA-ROEA si asta cand puteai sa te duci in BOR-ROAA. Astazi esti in Biserica noastra Mama, OCA si acum, vrei sa ne vinzi la BOR, cei care ne-au abandonat acum 65 de ani. De ce oare?  b- Vrem si mai multi ierarhi ortodocsi Americani, asa cum avem in OCA. Nu vrem importati din Romania, ce ne va impune BOR, daca intram sub jugul lor. Avem nevoie de conducere locala. Vrem si mai multi preoti ortodocsi Americani. Avem din ce in ce mai multi, dar imigratia dupa 1990, fiind atat de masiva, astazi, in ROEA-OCA avem mai multi preoti decat locuri pentru ei. Multi dintre acesti preoti au decis sa ramana aici si se integreaza in societatea de aici, devenind cetateni, si cu copii nascuti aici. Deci, chiar preotii plecati din Romania devin preoti americanizati, adica integrati aici, raspunzand la nevoile parohienilor de aici, inclusiv copiii lor nascuti aici.

     

     4) a- Daca avem Mitropolie sub BOR, asta inseamna Biserica autonoma aici? Fii serios! BOR va transforma Bisericile noastre in platforme politice, cum fac cu multe din ROAA, si cum de fapt au facut deja cu mai multe din parohiile noastre aici, in timpul alegerilor prezidentiale recente din Romania. Autonomia o vom avea pana cand va vrea Bucurestiul! b- Apartinand de BOR nu ne-ar face canonici; suntem deja. Devenind supusi BOR-ului, ne-ar scoate din regula ortodoxa unde spune clar ca sa apartinem de biserica locala, BOR IN ROMANIA, si OCA IN AMERICA. Altceva este anti-canonic!

     

    5)  Aici este America de Nord, Biserica locala este OCA. Multi dintre noi, membri OCA-ROEA, suntem aici de 100 de ani; 4-5 generatii nascute pe acest continent, de origine romana. Multi dintre noi nu mai vorbim limba romana, dar noi si parintii nostrii au cladit aceste Biserici ortodoxe pe care inca le sustinem, in mare parte. Din 1990 incoace, noi am primit un nou val de imigranti din Romania asa cum se cade, cu bratele deschise, nu ca sa ne dati afara din bisericile cladite si sustinute de noi si de inaintasii nostri (si nu ai vostri). Nu! Noi am avut incredere in sinceritatea, bunatatea, cinstea si dragostea de Biserica, pe care am crezut ca exista in inima fiecarui Roman, asa cum am invatat de la parintii nostri. Ne doare foarte mult ca astazi unii dintre cei veniti dupa 1990 incearca acest “puscht” sa ne scoateti din OCA, Biserica noastra Mama. Intelegeti ca trebuie sa ne convingeti de ce este bine sa parasim OCA-ul ca sa intram sub BOR, si nu invers. Cand ati venit in America, ati avut de ales intre OCA-ROEA sau BOR-ROAA, si ati ales prima. Daca nu va mai convine OCA-ROEA de ce nu va duceti la BOR-ROAA? De ce vreti sa ne trageti si pe noi unde poate nu vrem sa mergem, mai ales dupa ce v-am deschis usile mari si v-am primit asa de frumos? Ne doare… Va rugam, si va spunem, acest dialog sa ramana civilizat; fara amenintari, fara insulte, fara propaganda si mai ales, fara minciuni. Deci, nu este numai vorba de parohii cu multi convertiti, este vorba de parohii unde gasesti “pui de romani” care sunt aici de 4-5 generatii. Fiti recunoscatori de truda lor si a parintilor lor… In final, cei care vor ca sa parasim OCA si sa mergem sub BOR au datoria sa argumenteze pozitia lor si sa convinga marea majoritate din membrii acestei Episcopii. Altfel, orice “Unire” prin forta si amenintari nu poate fi de durata. In schimb, cearta, dezbinare, rupturi, etc. vor fi rezultatul, si asta in numele Domnului?


  11. Fact Check Says:

    Aveti mult de invatat domnule. Luati manualul de drept ortodox si cititi … si canoanele ortodoxe. Nu am sa stau acuma sa ma justific la infinit… Asa ca eu zic…nu va luati dupa ce spun altii… ci dupa cum este corect si cum ne spun canoanele.


  12. Administrator Says:

    Fact Check, chiar daca ati fi luat o diploma de la Constanta, asta nu inseamna ca aveti dreptul sa faceti afirmatii gratuite si nesuportate pe acest site. Este ceva care nu va convine? Atunci, argumentati corect, fara logica circulara, cu exemple si citate.


  13. Fact Check Says:

    Unirea trebuie sa se faca prin vot. Punct. De 18 ani se tot incearca sa faca pe “acei impotriva sa inteleaga.” De 18 ani nu s-a luat la vot niciodata. Sa se ia si sa vedem ce vor majoritatea, si gata…


  14. Administrator Says:

    Fact Check, daca tot se vorbeste de unire sub BOR si nu se face, nu inseamna ca propunerea sustinuta de Dv. nu este suportata? Cam asa sa vede… Tipati mai tare… Din ce in ce mai putina lume va aude. Toate au o limita…


  15. Fact check Says:

    Stim cu totii ca e sustinuta de majoriatea oameniilor din aceasta episcopie; majoritatea clerului.

    Persoana impotriva, stim cu totii care este…ah, si impreuna cu o mana de alti oameni, din care face-ti si dumneavostra parte.


  16. Admininsrator Says:

    Fact Check, ai facut doua “afirmatii” in aceeasi fraza, dar nici una suportata cu fapte: 1) afirmatia ta ca unirea sub BOR “e sustinuta de majoriatea oamenilor din aceasta episcopie” si 2) afirmatia ta ca unirea sub BOR e sustinuta de “majoriatea clerului”. Nu este mai logic sa spunem ca daca in ultimii 20 de ani inca nu s-a facut asa ceva, in viitorii 20 de ani nici nu se va mai pomeni de asa ceva? A plecat trenul din gara …

    Daca stiti cine este pentru sau contra unirii sub Bucuresti, de ce nu incercati sa convingeti acele persoane impotriva sa va dea dreptate? Simplu! Nu se poate, fiindca nu aveti argumente valabile. Singurul argument care l-ati dat pana-n prezent este unul ne-ortodox, bazat pe filetism.


  17. Chrysostom Says:

    Empirically, ecclesiastical orders refer to Empire or community definition and the anamnesis element in the Catholic liturgies is a type of pledge of wishing to refer to a particular Political and Cultural system; in Eastern Orthodoxy, as a result of political fragmentations and perhaps before that of the definition of the autonomy of dioceses, governance has also had a rather local flavor in addition to wishing to belong to a greater political and racial whole; the hierarchs of the Orthodox Churches embody both these aspirations. Hence I find it quaint that there should be so much noise made against +Bart especially in the USA, whose political order under the moderation of the Bankers and Coporatocracy (a John Perkin’s definition) has severed Europe from most of the rest of the world, especially its connections with Asia in favor of some peculiar alliance to Europe as the defining norm for its own values and sense of excellence and dominance. If +Bart is to be ignored, then the Eastern Orthodox Roman Empire boundaries and racial definition of this religion can also be ignored.


  18. fact check Says:

    Daca nu s-a facut nimic in ultimii 20 de ani, nu este pentru ca nu a vrut clerul episcopiei, si nici pentru ca nu a vrut laicii episcopie, ci din alta cauza/alte persoane/a, pe care ii stim cu totii care sunt.

    Ne-am saturat sa tot incercam sa convingem “o minoritate.” Si Majoritatea, sa fim condusi sub RUSI de o “minoritate.” Asa ca nu vreti? Ramane-ti cu OCA si lasa Romanii sa apartina “de Romani”. De atata multa vorbarie, multa saracie, convingere, ne-am saturat cu totii de 20 de ani.


  19. Admininsrator Says:

    Fact Check, fii serios! Daca Episcopia noastra nu s-a subjugat Bucurestiului din 1945 pana in 1990 (45 de ani), si nu a vrut nici din 1990 pana in 2010 (adica inca 20 de ani), nu poate fi numai fiindca asa a vrut o persoana, sau un mic grup de persoane. Romanul-American si imigrantul Roman in libertate nu se lasa jucat asa de usor. Numai cei scoliti in sistemul de trista amintire, si care nu au evoluat de atunci, pot crede asa ceva!
    Vorbesti de Rusi in OCA, si atunci, de ce ai intrat in ROEA/OCA? De ce nu te-ai dus din prima in ROAA-BOR? Ce interes ai sa creezi dezbinare in Episcopia noastra? Cine te-a trimis sa faci bucluc la noi? Ne-am saturat si noi de provocarile venite din alta tara, din tara parintilor nostri, de la Biserica Mama BOR, care si-a abandonat puii cand era mai greu, si a incercat sa ne submineze si din interior si din ROAA/BOR de atunci in colo. Dece, daca totul s-a schimbat in Romania dupa 1990, BOR nu a desfiintat ROAA, creiatia ministerului comunist de Culte din 1950, lasand parohiile din ROAA sa intre in ROEA, care reprezinta majoritatea masiva in America de Nord? Nu, BOR inca vrea ceva dela noi, si din cauza aceasta nu ne lasa in pace.
    Aici, in America de Nord, de aproape 65 de ani, noi am evoluat ca o Biserica fara ei, si din nou ei incearca sa se foloseasca de noi ca o unelta politica in mana lor, si in mana guvernului Roman care sustine financiar Biserica, conducand-o prin faptul ca plateste salariile tuturor clericilor din BOR.
    Noi nu dorim sa fim sub ciocanul BOR-ului nicidecum, si nici sub comanda unei tari straine prin intermediul bisericii. Daca asa vreti, duceti-va singuri sub ROAA/BOR si lasati-ne pe noi in pace. Opriti-va, cu minciunile si incurcati-va unul pe altul in ROAA, structura creata ca sa ne controleze pe noi! La voi in ROAA/BOR va fi care pe care, si la noi, fara voi, pace in ROEA/OCA!


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PRAYER OF ST. EPHREM

O Lord and Master of my life,
leave me not with the spirit of laziness,
of despair, of domination, or idle words.

Rather, give me, your servant, the spirit of integrity,
of humility, of patience, and of love.

Thus, Lord, grant me the wisdom to see my own faults,
and not condemn my brother;

for You are blessed, now and forever. Amen.



OUR FATHER

Our Father, who are in heaven,
hallowed be Your name.

Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.

Give us this day
our daily bread,
and forgive us our trespasses,
as we forgive those
who trespass against us.

And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.