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CIRCULAR LOGIC

Author: Alex. Nemoianu
October 26, 2009
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On Romanian “Unity” CIRCULAR LOGIC

During the past two years Romanians in North America have heard the formula “we should subordinate (”unite”) to the Romanian Patriarchate because this is “good” ad nauseam. The wording may be different at various times, but definitely that is the message. It is a classic example of “circular logic” or “circular reasoning”.

Circular reasoning, circular logic, “petitio principii” or as it is known “circulus in probando”, is an attempt to support a statement by simply repeating the statement in different or stronger terms. In this fallacy, the reason given is nothing more than a restatement of the conclusion that poses as the reason for the conclusion. To say, “we should be subordinated to the Romanian Patriarchate because it is good” is really saying no more than “we should be subordinated to the Romanian Patriarchate because we should be subordinated”. That is exactly, in my opinion, the position on which the Joint Dialogue Commission (JDC) is stuck.

First of all, it should be repeated that the JDC is “negotiating” something that it has no mandate to negotiate. The JDC has no legal authority to “negotiate” a separation of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America from the Orthodox Church of America. With such a “proposal” the JDC is totally “out of order”.  That should be enough reason to put an end to its activity.

About the JDC it is apt to say:” They have mistaken the hour of the night: it is already morning”. The only “arguments” for its “proposal” … can be summarized as being a form of … ethnocentrism … racism. This “proposal” goes against the grain of history in the New World, a history that is eminently about inclusion and not exclusion. It ignores the historical evolution of the Romanian-Americans and the Romanian-Canadians and insults their respective 2nd, 3rd, 4th or 5th generations. In my opinion, it can be said that what the JDC is doing is, in form and in spirit, un-American. In addition, in switching allegiances … “our” members of the JDC show not whose friends they are - but what sort of friends they are.

In fact the JDC follows an amazing approach. It cannot deny that the “missionary” contraption is a creation of the Romanian Communists. It cannot deny that the Romanian Patriarchate stood as accomplice to the Romanian Communist regime. It cannot deny that both the “missionary” contraption and the Patriarchate were the sworn enemies of the “Vatra” Episcopate. The JDC chooses to ignore history, denying the facts…

The JDC, in my opinion, chose to ignore basic Orthodox tenets about the local character of dioceses and of canonical jurisdiction. The JDC made a political option that accommodates the interests of a kleptocratic foreign entity (The Romanian Orthodox Patriarchate), of a contraption brought into existence by the Romanian Communists (their so- called “missionary” entity) and of the Romanian State. They choose to ignore, in my opinion, the history, the best interests and the identity of the “Vatra” Episcopate.

The JDC’s divisive and secretive activity, is, in my opinion a real danger for the unity of the Episcopate and its future historical development. The JDC should be dismantled…

Alexandru Nemoianu

48 Comments to “CIRCULAR LOGIC”


  1. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    It’s pretty clear that the forces pushing the Romanians to unite under the Romanian Patriarch are strong. However, the fact remains, according to Orthodox Canon Law, “Local churches are under the rule of local bishops.” There is nothing in canon law giving foreign bishops control over “local” established churches in other countries. The current Romanians under the OCA, correct according to canon law, rule themselves and run their own churches. This is how Christ & His Apostles organized the Church. There is no need to be under foreign bishops - WHY?

    So, if the patriarchal Romanians wish to obey Orthodox Canon Law, they too would embrace the Romanian diocese under the OCA!


  2. Anonymous 2 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    In my opinion, those that support a unification of Romanians under the Patriarchate … [dishonor] Archbishop VALERIAN and the thousands of others who were harassed by the Communists and the Patriarchate’s jurisdiction even after settling in the New World.

    … For years Archbishop NATHANIEL has supported OCA autocephaly and a united American Church. Why the sudden change of heart? Is this kind of phyletism embedded that deep within the Old World and the bishops of “ethnic” jurisdictons and/or dioceses?


  3. Anonymous 3 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    … Archbishop Valerian and others fought against communism not because they wanted something to fight forever, but because they wanted to overcome it, defeat it, and build an even better and stronger church and world after it. Today, we can say that they won the good fight!

    I do not understand why people cannot accept this fact, and why they dishonor the memory and actions of people such as Archbishop Valerian by continuing to deny them the deserved recognition that they ultimately won. Now it is time to move on and build up the church, not to still fight a battle that has already been won.


  4. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    And “moving on” would appropriately be the Romanian Patriarchate realizing that those who have been here 100 years are NOT “diaspora” Romanians who need to relinquish the Church built on this soil to a foreign bishop again! “Moving no” is much better understood as realizing the future of the Church on this continent is the diocese as part of the autocephelos Orthodox Church in America. Then we will relate to the Patriarch of our ethnic roots as an equal sister church, respectful of traditions and Tradition.


  5. Fast Check Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    Mr. Nemoianu asserts that: “First of all, it should be repeated that the JDC is ‘negotiating’ something that it has no mandate to negotiate. The JDC has no legal authority to ‘negotiate’ a separation of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America from the Orthodox Church of America. With such a ‘proposal’ the JDC is totally ‘out of order’. That should be enough reason to put an end to its activity.”

    Though that might have been true at one point, it is no longer, for the Episcopate Congress voted to support the work of the JDC and its proposal for reunion as the basis for further discussion. This it has a mandate and is in order…

    Those who are against the reunion should spend more time on actual reasons to be against it…


  6. Administrator Says:

    Fact Check, Mr. Nemoianu asserts that: “the JDC is ‘negotiating’ something that it has no mandate to negotiate. The JDC has no legal authority to ‘negotiate’ a separation of the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America from the Orthodox Church of America.” When the JDC went to Bucharest in early 2008 the only mandate it received was one to correct the historic record regarding our Hierarchs and Episcopate, overturning falsehoods sustained by the Romanian Patriarchate and its local and subservient underling ROAA Archdiocese for almost 60 years. It came back with an “Agreed Statement” that calls for our joining the ROAA under BOR and consequently, this would mean abandoning the OCA. Negotiating this seems ‘out of order’, particularly since the JDC had no mandate in this regard. Mr. Nemoianu seems to be correct in his assertions.

    Fact Check, let’s check the facts regarding the mandate given to the ROEA JDC by the 2008 Episcopate Congress which voted the following resolution: “Be it also resolved that the Episcopate Council recommends to the Episcopate Congress, in keeping with due diligence, that the Joint Dialogue Commission’s efforts to establish the Metropolitanate can continue, that the Archbishop… establish special Committees, namely, a “Constitution and By-Laws Committee”, “Jurisprudence”, “Finance Committee” and any other committees that may be necessary… And be it further resolved that said committees be established as soon as possible, and that their work be reported to the Episcopate Council…” Nowhere does the Congress support the JDC’s “proposal for reunion as the basis for further discussion” as you claim, it just allows the process, particularly “Due Diligence” to proceed. Consequently, no such mandate has been given and the JDC seemingly continues to be “out of order” as maintained by Mr. Nemoianu.


  7. Child of Romania, but an American Orthodox Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    The JDC is to negotiate. But WHAT? What kind of unity? There has been this grand assumption by the Episcopate’s JDC members that going back under Bucharesti is the only option. Why??? Did they ever put forth the concept of having the Patriarch do the right thing and release his parishes to the Episcopate? Why not?

    And by the way, I think signing some letter of intention WITHOUT any kind of mandate shortly after the Patriarchate put the “offer” on the table was really presumptuous.


  8. Anonymous 4 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    … Aside from the tone, looking at specific accusations, [the author] … accuses the JDC committee of being “secretive” … oblivious to the fact that, at the past two ROEA congresses, the JDC explained the proposal at great length, point by point, and opened the floor for HOURS of questions and debate. Even when directly insulted, they still responded in a respectful way… I understand that the episcopate council receives updates and has lengthy discussion at every meeting. They even traveled to a parish for a town hall type meeting for interested parishioners when invited to do so by the parish council. But alas, such open discussion is still considered “secretive” by those who refuse to accept any of the answers.

    After getting questions answered by the JDC clergy, I have actually heard with my own ears people say “I don’t care what you say, I will never accept those people.” And so there it is. Therein lies our shame as Romanian-Americans. I personally am born in America and accept all people to join our church, and yet a few of my fellow Orthodox Christians have nothing but hate for people even of our own blood. How could I not be at least a little ashamed for my church?


  9. Fr. Christopher Calin Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    So some Romanians are hotheads and prone to hyperbole — I know that first hand –ahem. But the issue is not about “blood,” but unity in Christ. You are confusing blood ties with ecclesiology. We are all one in Christ, in whom there is neither Jew nor Greek, free or bond — and for that matter neither American, Romanian, Bulgarian, Albanian or Slav… We are citizens of no lasting city, but of paradise, and sojourning in this world. We must grow where we are planted. Those who strongly desire to by under the mother church/ ‘sub biserica mama’, should move to the motherland/ ‘tara mama’. Those who live here in America and build churches here in America, are part of the Church in America, not the Church in Romania. Why is that so hard to understand?

    If they truly desire unity of the Romanians here, let BOR really show itself to be forward looking and fully recognize the ROEA/OCA and unite its small number of parishes with it — that would be truly visionary. Instead, finally, they are asking the ROEA to repudiate its 80 year history here and to renounce the OCA. In the end it is nothing more than a diocese/real estate/financial/land/people grab — the same goal they have been trying to attain for 80 years. But now they want you to hand it to them on a silver platter.

    It seems shameful to me. ‘Nu ti rusine’? Forgive me for any offense in expressing my opinion on this matter.


  10. Anonymous 4 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    Fr. Calin, I am well aware of blood ties and ecclesiology. That is why I firmly believe we should accept all people. But why is it that many of those who are against such unity are the same people who I have heard speak about “those people” and “they should just go back to Romania, we don’t need them here” and who really treat our immigrants as 2nd class citizens. I see it with my own eyes and hear it with my own ears. And it disgusts me. Are we supposed to set-up some kind of exclusive “American Church” where only people who are “apple pie” are allowed? I know you don’t advocate this concept, but there are those who do and I wish it would stop.


  11. Fr. Christopher Calin Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    There has been a feeling for decades that the Episcopate is being taken over from within by the influx of clergy from Romania. This is not to make excuses for bigots who may treat the newcomers as interlopers or 2nd class citizens. That is dead wrong and worthy to be renounced.

    All members of the Episcopate are equal, but the newcomers need to learn respect for the history of the Episcopate, and for the sacrifice and hard work that provided them with churches to come to and to attend here in the US. That is often sadly lacking. They sneer and jeer when English is used in the Liturgy (I experienced this first hand), they reject a progressive Eucharistic theology, they distance themselves from other Orthodox churches based on political or historical rivalries brought with them from Romania. I am tired of being accused of “going to the Russians” by some of these very people, as if I should be ashamed of myself. It was these close-minded, ethnocentric attitudes that drove me out of the Episcopate years ago. Out of a church school of 60 children at St. Mary Church in Chicago, only 5 of them remain in the Church! There was no pastoral care for them after Vatra camp — it became irrelevant to them and their lives.

    I do not propose an “American pie” Orthodoxy — far from it, but I do advocate that we be realistic. The newcomers here have no intention to return to Romania to live. They are here. There is a Church here. The BOR has no business directing/controlling/supervising/providing chrism/approving episcopal candidates for Church life here. The Romanian church here has grown and thrived in this land under the OCA. The union of the ROEA & ROAA [under BOR] would create yet another anti-canonical entity, where parishes are foreign embassies, or as I see it, ethnic cultural clubs with a cross on the roof. The promise of granting it “maximal autonomy” is a mirage as witnessed by recent threats of the BOR toward it’s own ROAA recently (”Unite with the ROEA or we will create another Diocese there to supplant you both”). The incentive of raising it to the status of a “Metropolia” and endowing its Primate with the title Metropolitan is a meaningless bit of flattery that only feeds the lowest desires of our passions.

    The BOR is rich, they can and have offered great “incentives” — the same ones they offered to Archbishop Valerian time and again, and which he refused.

    It is not just about communism and militant atheism anymore. A greater matter of ecclesiology is at stake.

    Let’s see common work between the two Dioceses, a manifest unity rather than an administrative one. Jointly held Congresses, joint efforts in publications, internet and mission building. Joint charitable outreach here and in Romania… but not a capitulation to the outmoded demands the BOR have been making since 1950.


  12. Mark Says:

    Anonymous 4, you take offense at Nemoianu calling the JDC secretive? When it has a mandate to negotiate one thing (the historic record) and comes back with an agreement to subject the Vatra to the Romanian Patriarch, something it never even had the right to negotiate, this is called what? Committees work to specific mandates. Committees are not policy makers. Sorry, secretive is too nice a word in this context.

    You refer to a “town hall type meeting for interested parishioners” the JDC attended “when invited to do so by the parish council”. You fail to mention that this was at St. Mary Church in Cleveland where JDC member Fr. R. Grama is the Parish Priest and organizer. You also fail to mention that no debate took place, just a continuous one-sided sales pitch, where every question was an excuse to sell the crowd on joining the Romanian Church. Those opposed had no equal platform. This was one-sided and biased, far from what was required.


  13. Un Prieten Says:

    Episcopia noastra chiar vrea sa paraseasca OCA-ul? Nu cred. Daca se mai continua astfel de discutii sa oprim totul si sa cerem: “Vot secret la adunariile generale in parohii si misiuni”. Sa vedem ce spune lumea, si nu ce spun “conducatorii”. Destul.


  14. Anonymous 5 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    Over time, there have been many of us who have hoped that the Episcopate (Romanian diocese) would become more woven into the fabric of the OCA. That is part of the process of becoming rooted here in America and the OCA, participating more and more in the life of the autocephalous Church here. Others took advantage of growing numbers of immigrants to move things backward, which makes no sense if the people coming here today plan to stay in America. Their motives raise questions about how they understand the Church, beyond ethnic enclaves.


  15. Carmen Valentino Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    The Romanian-American Orthodox Episcopate of America (ROEA), as part of the Orthodox Church of America (OCA), has been given the precious gift of freedom to grow and flourish in North America, without the religious and political hindrances so prevalent in the Old World.

    The ROEA and OCA are native organically established and developed institutions, as American as apple pie. After over one hundred years, most Romanian Americans/Canadians and their families, including those newer immigrants from Romania and adjacent countries are here to stay and establish roots here in North America. Why should the ROEA exchange fresh organic apple pie for imported stale ‘mamaliga’ (corn meal mush)?

    For those Romanian Americans/Canadians who desire to be subjugated both religiously and thus politically to the dictates of a former treacherous fascist, later communist and now neo-communist state, they have several options including membership in the Romanian Orthodox Archdiocese of America (ROAA), which is already under the jurisdiction of the Romanian Patriarchate.

    By attacking a well known respected and published Romanian-American historian and scholar, Alexander Nemoianu, the anonymously signed comments by sycophants, both within and outside of the ROEA, do a great disservice to both the Romanian-American church and community as well as the OCA.

    (Mr.) Carmen D. Valentino
    -Member, Descent of the Holy Spirit Romanian Orthodox Church(Elkins Park/Philadelphia. (Founded 1913)
    -Vice-President & Museum Curator Societatea Banatiana-V.Alecsandri. (Founded 1906)
    -Fulbright Scholar and Researcher, (Vienna,1968-9;Bucurest,1971-2)
    -Romanian-AmericanCommissioner,Pennsylvania Ethnic Heritage Commission (1990-94)


  16. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    The legality of the Joint Commission of Dialoge (JDC)?

    The JDC has no legal authority to move toward a separation of the “Vatra” Episcopate from the OCA. More than that, the “Vatra” Episcopate Congress can not confer such a mandate to the JDC.

    … The first, necesary and elementary step in passing new legislation is to reconcile and make it consistent with the existing legal order. Consequently, until the mentioned paragraph will be rescinded, under the United States law as governing agreements, any step toward the separation of the ROEA from the OCA is mute. Again consequently the JDC proposals for a separation of the ROEA from OCA are null and void, out of order and out of legal order…


  17. Anonymous 4 Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    … The JDC was given a charge by the Romanian Episcopate congress to formulate a proposal for unity and to present it back to the congress for consideration. It is the congress who makes decisions, not a JDC committee or any other committee. If the congress decides to accept a unity proposal, who then would he or others take to court? Each and every delegate and clergyman? He is entitled to his opinions as are all of us, but I do not believe that such threats have any merit… especially when talking about the Church.

    Furthermore, I wonder just how excited the United States courts are to rule on issues of ecclesiastical jurisdiction. Don’t they usually just refer back to the highest executive body of the congregation in question?


  18. Administrator Says:

    As mentioned in the October 28 response to Fact Check, the mandate given to the ROEA JDC by the 2008 Episcopate Congress was the following resolution: “Be it also resolved that the Episcopate Council recommends to the Episcopate Congress, in keeping with due diligence, that the Joint Dialogue Commission’s efforts to establish the Metropolitanate can continue, that the Archbishop… establish special Committees, namely, a “Constitution and By-Laws Committee”, “Jurisprudence”, “Finance Committee” and any other committees that may be necessary… And be it further resolved that said committees be established as soon as possible, and that their work be reported to the Episcopate Council…” Any JDC proposal for Unity will have to obtain permission and proper approval before it can go forward. Also, nothing stops another proposal for Unity (possibly having the ROAA join the ROEA in the OCA) to be subjected to the same rule. Respect of rules, Church Constitutions, By-Laws, and signed Agreements, as well as respect of civil laws as they pertain to non-profits, are the guarantors of proper, fair and uncontested results. It is not a threat to assert that non-respect of these rules may lead to all sorts of unpleasantness, starting with arguments in our churches instead of prayer, divisions and disunity in our Episcopate, having these types of discussions instead of spending our time debating how to grow the church in North America, etc.


  19. Fact Check Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    Of course, any proposal the JDC develops has no legal authority by itself. It would have to be ratified by an Episcopate Congress which has the authority. No one has ever denied that. Just like any piece of legislation, the proposal is developed in committee to come up with a document that reflects a solution for the larger body to decide upon. There is nothing nefarious about that.

    If ratified, that proposal then goes to the Holy Synod which is the final authority. The Holy Synod has the right to effectively “veto” such a proposal, particularly if such a proposal violates canonical order (which it may in fact do). Whether the Synod has the backbone (and resources) to enforce a veto is entirely another matter. If they accept the proposal it would likely require a mutual rescinding of the Dec. 17, 1970 agreement by both parties. Thus the JDC’s work is not out of order, nor illegal.


  20. Alexandru Nemoianu Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    Calling white black!

    The tactic of “turning the tables” and of calling white black is the new weapon of the partisans of the subordination of the ROEA to the Romanian Patriarchate. The tactic, obviously, was the result of collusion between them and the “movers and shakers” of the Romanian Patriarchate.

    These individuals (fierce partisans of the anonymous letters) are calling, those who oppose the idea of subordination , … communists and accuse them of making ‘incendiary” declarations. Such” logic” is typical for the totalitarian sycophantic mentality; it is the tactic of calling white black and vice versa. It is also a classic example of an oxymoron (the combination in one expression of terms that contradict themselves.). It is obvious that those who are for the status quo, for the existing and legal existing situation, can not make “incendiary” appeals; ” incendiary” meaning to be for a violent and radical change, consequently, exactly those who plan to change the status of the “Vatra” are “incendiary”.

    Promoting a return to the situation that existed before WWII is absurd. The Romanian-American community is not, in form and in spirit, what is was before WW II and the Romanian Patriarchate is not, in form and most definitely in spirit, what it was before WW II. Between what the Romanian American community was before WW II, and what it is now, is a difference of category, and the same is true in regard to the Romanian Patriarchate. It is unacceptable, according to any intellectual standards, to compare things that belong to different categories. It is like saying that children who move, when mature, from their parents’ house, in order to have their own family, are… against the idea of family. But this tactic will not work.

    Since 1939, when Bishop Policarp returned to Romania and never came back, the Romanian-American community has gained its historical identity, as part of the American Nation. Subordination to a foreign entity, i.e.the Romanian Patriarchate, would be against the historical evolution of the Romanian-American community, it would amount to a voluntary marginalization, to a voluntary gettoization. Such a giant step backward would amount to a historic catastrophe for the Romanian-American community.
    The Romanian Patriarchate today, in form and spirit, is but a cleptocratic entity. (Cleptocracy is a system where the leaders use their position to forward their personal interests.) The so called Romanian Orthodox “missionary” eparchy in America is but a relic of the cold war. The attempt to subordinate “Vatra” to the Romanian Patriarchate is a continuation of the Romanian communist policy; it is contrary to the historical interests of the Romanian-American community; it is, in form and spirit, contrary to the promotion of Orthodoxy and Orthodox unity in America; it is, in form and spirit, un-American.
    This attempt will not pass!


  21. Carmen Valentino Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    In the spirit of Christian charity, the ROEA (Vatra) co-operated in an avenue of cordial and ecumenical relationships, via the JDC (Joint Dialogue Commission) with both the Romanian Patriarchate and its “missionary” branch in the USA/Canada . AND THAT IS WHERE THE MATTER SHOULD HAVE STOPPED, considering a near sixty year long history of divisive problems and lawsuits with these Romanian entities.

    Archbishop Nathaniel for years, “talked the talk and walked the walk” for the OCA and North American Orthodox unity.

    The question which now begs to be answered is why there is a recent change of attitude by many in the ROEA -especially amongst the clergy-sworn to Vatra fidelity- away from the OCA? Hmmmmmmmm, perhaps new vestments and travel grants to Romania??

    (Mr.) Carmen D. Valentino
    Philadelphia,PA.


  22. Un Prieten Says:

    Noi am trait in acel sistem otravitor si cunoastem metodele lor. Din pacate au ajuns si aici. Sa nu ne lasam jucati aici.


  23. A Fellow Orthodox Christian Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    [In response to the October 28, 2009 comment of “Child of Romania, but an American Orthodox”]; Did they [ROAA-BOR] ever put forth the concept of having the Patriarch do the right thing and release his parishes to the [ROEA] Episcopate? Why not?

    Excellent questions. I’m unclear as to why this is a negotiation , as opposed to a planning process implementing explicit ecclesiological principles.

    What explicit principles rule the day here?


  24. Fast Check Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    One should recall that the JDC began as a diplomatic effort between the ROEA and the ROAA, not the ROEA and the Patriarch. Part of the reason the JDC proposal does not include what you are suggesting is that the JDC is also composed of 5 members of the ROAA, who have something to say about their destiny. They do not necessarily wish to be removed from their Mother Church. Thus the proposal to release the ROAA to the ROEA under the OCA was not put on the table. The ROAA must consent to any proposal as well.


  25. Anonymous Says:

    as posted on ocanews.org, ‘Share your comments’ section regarding ‘On Romanian Unity – Circular Logic’

    The JDC members are to represent their own diocese. So to say that there are JDC members who don’t want to leave their mother church as if it is ONE unified body and not a commission comprised of two jurisdictions shows a true lack of understanding of the Episcopate as part of the OCA, and not some vestige of the BOR.


  26. Matt Says:

    If I understand Fact Check, the JDC members from each jurisdiction, ROEA and ROAA were representing their own diocese. So, we have 2 commissions working “together”. Certain things were probably easier to come to an agreement on than others. When the unity issue came up the ROAA group probably said ‘we want Unity, but only under BOR’. What did our group say? ‘OK?’ Why didn’t we also say ‘we want Unity, but only under OCA?’ If that condition was not to be met our commission had no authority to continue unity discussions. Our commission was, as Mr. Nemoianu asserts, ‘out of order’.


  27. Carmen D. Valentino Says:

    Congratulations to Fr. Christopher Calin - not only for signing his full name - but also for his careful analysis of the numerous problems inherent in the proposed union of the two Romanian-American dioceses, ROEA and ROAA. Such a “union” would indeed create anti-canonical ethnocentric religious nightmare which is to be avoided at all costs by all parties involved.

    Why would any Romanian-American(or convert) either new immigrant or ‘old timer’ desire the canonical tutelage of a Romanian patriarch who uses bullying threats even to his own underlings in America? His insidious offer of creating a metropolia here with Archbishop Nathaniel at its head is in reality a demonical temptation to the curse of power. A neo-communist offer of”maximal autonomy” is a mere illusion of grandeur, it being simply an extension of the of the religious and political satrap system created by the Romanian kleptocratic church-state.

    The Romanian-American Orthodox Church flourished here in the USA, because the majority of Romanian-Americans,their offspring,converts and new immigrants learned to appreciate the blessings inherent in the highly cherished American constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state.Any move away from the canonical protection of the OCA by the Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America would be an unmitigated disaster for all concerned parties.
    (Mr.) Carmen D. Valentino


  28. Where's The Balance? Says:

    Mr Administrator: Why do you only post here on your site the favourable comments from ocanews.org about Mr Nemoianu’s article? If you want to add to your credibility as being a truly fair and open forum, then publish all the comments in full and let the readers form their own informed opinions. Otherwise, you just appear to be rigging this site to portray one side. (And cherry-picking a few lines out of a posting so that you can make comment on it does not count for including that posting.)


  29. Administrator Says:

    Dear “Where’s the Balance”. On this site we do try to present both sides of the argument and debate the issues at hand. So, if you think we have left something of value out in choosing/editing comments, please advise and we will rectify the situation.


  30. Mihai Says:

    All the comments are wonderful. They all express different points of views, for and against unification. However how many of these comments are really true in the eyes of Christ. We all call ourselves Orthodox Christians, but how many truly are “Orthodox Christians.” I say this because the concept of being a true Orthodox Christian embraces many aspects, two of which most importantly are, spiritual growth in the Orthodox Christian Tradition and second, “fully respecting” the Orthodox Canons”. If a one does not “fully respect the orthodox canons” he/she is bound for failure, and with time, he/she, particularly the Episcopate, will have to confront more and more problems. The canons of the church were established to keep order in the church, not just 2000 years ago, but for as long as life shall exist on earth. The Orthodox Church is not a church which “modernizes” rather it seeks for this secular modern society we live in today, which is led by $$$, to embrace the original Christian Teachings of our Lord Jesus Christ and his Church;that is the teaching of the Original Church, even if that means many times surrendering our modern human ideologies. Those who have not done this in the past we, presently as Christians and Christianity itself as an entity suffers presently, that is a result of over 3500 protestant denominations just in the U.S. Why is this? Because of the Modern thinking most people in this country think they can impose on the church. Iata Rezultatul! The same is with Unity with our Mother Church in Romania. We need to re-establish our Christian parental relatonship with BOR, because one, we carry the name of “The Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America,” 2, because they have a greater athority in the Orthodox world (which uplifts us as Romanian Orthodox in America, 3, because it is what the canons of the Church, “dreptul Bisericesc” requires, 4, because we as Romanian Orthodox living in the United States need to once and for all be United into one unit, and put an end to being a “lost sheep Nationality - lost within this larg continent, asking for water from “Other Nationalities” just so we survive. We need to find our Shepard who serves Christ so that we as Romanian Orthodox (as is the title of our Episcopate) find our Mother, that is the BOR, not the Russians, the Greeks, the Albanians and so forth. The Romanians.

    Everyone on the site, the vast majority of comments againts Romanian Unity, do not seem find a compromise. They say, ‘we like it the way we are’. Well, if we stay the way we are, then we should change our Episcopate Title. Unification with our Mother Church BOR would serve as more in a simbolic sense, and in no way in an administrative aspect for BOR. For example, the Patriarch of Romania in no way has any say administrativly in Mitropolia ardealului. Mitropolia Ardealului, Modovei etc, is strictly governed by it’s metropolitan. This is especially to same for the present Metropolinates outside Romania, like Germany, France etc. In the same time, unification would serve from a “Drept Bisericesc” standpoint; and this standpoint is especially important, if we call ourselves Orthodox. Nu putem fii ortodocsi doar cu un picior pe teren! We would recieve “Sfantul Mir” from our mother church BOR. We would have our own Metropolinate here in the U.S. with Bishops on every coast. And of course, these Bishops, including the metropolitan, would be part of the Holy Sinod of BOR. So unification would not only unify Romanian Orthodoxy in North America and Canada, but strengthen it. How? More Bishops, which we are in die-er need of on the large continent, canonical assurence, and administrative power so that Romanian Orthodoxy can flourish. Unification with the Patriarch of Bucharest would no way mean, unification with the Romanian government, and especially not mean, administrative power for the BOR here in the USA. Those who say this, are simply using this arguement stop unification, not taking in consideration the long term benefits, and the die-er need of being in canonical communion with allllll (not just some) of the Orthodox churches in the world, Especially, Constantinople.

    Many speak of a future for our children. How does the OCA offer this? In what way? Let it be known! Every Romanian on this Continent is thankful to God, for finding a country in which they can realize all their dreams and childrens future. But that is from a society standpoint. Democracy does not grant a future for our children in the church here in the U.S.,quite the opposite. In many aspects, it trys to take God as much as possible out of our lives. It does not make laws in accordance with the church. In fact, it does not even ask the church, or ask itself “is this what God would like.” Take for example, “gay marriage, cloning, abortion, and numerous other ethical laws, which have been legalized and which are in complete contradiction with the holy fathers, the bible, the teachings of our lord Jesus Christ. So can we say that we live in a society which promotes God, and Follows God? Certainly not. And so when one says that our childrens future is here in the U.S they are right. It is here in the U.S. but under modern American ideologies, not under the OCA, where our hierarchs and priests have the freedom to govern however they feel (from an canonical pastoral standpoint), not under the OCA. All the churches in the ROEA with the exception of a few, were built by newcomers, Romanians from Romania. They are the ones who truly ensured our future. The newer generations have not done have as to how much has been done by our father. Not mention the fact they are not even one fourth as united as they were. And so we have a church today, first because God is all loving and his church will never die, but secondly, because our forefathers were united and got things done. We do not have a local church to go to or an episcopate thanks to the oca, but thanks to the people from Romania, and the 99% Romanian priests who serve god.

    How many of our churches are visited yearly? There are churches who haven’t seen the hierarch for 15 years? What do we suppose is the job of the hierarch, just to formally represent the church, and make sure everything from a financial standpoint goes good? Certanly not! His job is to lead the flock by visiting the parishes and making sure allll the priests are doing their job, especially from a liturgical standpoint. There are parishes that finish the liturgy in 45 minutes! Why? because the parishoners (democracy, freedom) want the comodity of going home early on Sundays, of catching the football game, or to go shopping? Sa tinem minte! “daca luam de la Dumnezeu, si el va lua de la noi.” Cu lucrurile sfinte sa nu jucam, apai ori ca suntem laici, ori preoti, ori ierarhi. 2 Bishops is not sufficiant to lead a flock on an entire continetent. Our two hierarchs are not machines, they are people. They need help to ensure “nimeni nu se joaca cu cele sfinte” and especially, they need to be willing to get this help. And so Unification with BOR would not only unite Romanians, but it will strengthen Orthodoxy here in the U.S., m anti-unity aking it to grow and truly ensuring a future for our children by preserving the Orthodox faith in the way it should be. As far as comments on these anti unity websites go, their great. Freedom of speech is in our American rights, but that is in democracy, not in theocracy, that is not in God’s church. Sure, we all have the right to state our opinions but we better first make sure we know what we are talking. We better be sure we have enough education, theological education in as much we do not step on the church, because if what we are writing what has nothing to do with Christ, but with personal agenda’s, using the church as an anchor, then we are going straight to condemnation. Unification is essential not for Bucharest to extend it’s branches to America, but for Romanian Orthodoxy itself, not for persoanal agenda’s, but to make sure “those personal agenda’s cannot go into effect.” Hierarchs truly have to be part of a synod of bishops to which they have answer to, and lead the church the Orthodox way, and no other way. That is not say our hierarchs are not doing a great job, but it’s time for Romanian unity! It will happen sooner or later. Those who are against and want to remain with OCA, that’s fine, but that means their reasoning is not “our childrens future,” but freedom to do what they want, as was until now. We all want freedom, but not in the church. Freedom and democracy in the church does not ensure our future, but points toward Protestantism and secularism.

    Cand OCA o sa aiba identitatea si reputatia in lumea Ortodoxa, ca si cum o are BOR acum, atunci mai vorbim. Deocamdata, diferenta e ca de la cer la pamant. OCA nu are nici carti de cult, un tipic bine stabilit,toate cartile ce le au, sunt imprumutate de la alte etnii, de la Greci, si se cheama Orthodox Church of America. Asta face OCA. Se foloseste de Romani ca sa se numeasca Americani. Iar unii din ROEA se folosesc de OCA ca sa fie cat mai liberi si faca cu romanii ce vor ei, si mai ales cu Ortodoxia. Cum s-a mai spus si de altii pe acest blog. Entitatea Romana Ortodoxa nu va mai fi folosita de altii ca sa se numeasca OCA. Fiindca OCA nu le da nimic. E timpul sa ne vedem de turma noastra, daca ne numim “Episcopia Ortodoxa Romana din America si Canada.” Enough is Enough!


  31. Administrator Says:

    Mihai, if you are an Orthodox Christian why do you suggest that we here in America, abandon the American Orthodox Church (OCA) in order to submit ourselves to the foreign Romanian Orthodox Church (BOR)? Wouldn’t this be ethnocentric phyletism, and against all Orthodox ecclesiology and canons? Isn’t what you suggest a heresy, something all Orthodoxy is now attempting to rectify in the diaspora? Sorry, you’re too late: “trenul a plecat din gara” in other words “the train has already departed the station”! This is not about modern or conservative thinking. This is about the Canons. Also, our name reflects our heritage and the large influx of immigrants from Romania after 1990. Time will handle names. Remember, the ROEA is part of the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, of which we have been a Diocese for 40 years. There is a reason this has happened and it deals with looking forward and not backward. When we speak of our children’s need for the OCA, we refer to the evolution that we have seen with each immigration wave from Romania, i.e. the pre-WWI wave, the post WWII wave and finally the post 1989 wave. As time goes on, Romanians settling in America become Romanian-Americans then, 1-2 generations later American-Romanians and then, simply American. History has proven this, and many of us are living proof. You or anyone else cannot stop time, and what you suggest is equivalent to that.

    Remember, it is proponents of our abandoning the OCA and submitting ourselves to BOR rule that have to convince us why this should happen – not the other way around. We are quite happy as a Diocese in the OCA and we see an American Orthodox future for our children. We know they will not be Romanian for very long, but they will be American, hopefully of the Orthodox faith. You claim that unity under Romania would be symbolic and we would have autonomy like Metropolitanates in Romania. What autonomy? Do you know that no Romanian Metropolitan can consecrate a Bishop without BOR Holy Synod approval. Do you know that the laity is quickly being reduced to a symbolic position in Romania. Do you know that the Romanian State pays all its Hierarchs and clergy who must therefore submit to government directives? Do you not realize that any autonomy granted to us can be taken away the very next day by the autocephalous church granting it? How can this strengthen us in North America? Hold on. Our Bishops as members of the BOR Holy Synod is a good thing? No thank you. And you keep on churning the uncanonical lie. How many times must we repeat that the OCA Hierarchs and clergy concelebrate with all other Orthodox Hierarchs and clergy which, by definition means that all Orthodoxy recognizes the OCA as a canonical church.

    As mentioned, within a couple of generations you children will no longer even speak Romanian, and they will consider themselves to be American, whether you like it or not, and many of us have had parents-grandparents who did not – we know this as fact. If you want these children to remain Orthodox then the church must be adapted to their needs and not your own. So, the past is BOR and the future is OCA. Mihai, if you don’t like America please stop criticizing our country and our ways. Here, freedom of choice is ours and yours. We call this democracy and we give our lives to protect it. If you don’t like it, no one obliges you to stay here. Also, remember that we and our forefathers built these churches in America and we welcomed you in them, not to have you kick us out from them, but so that we may share our gift with you and with all who live in America. This is Christian practice, Orthodox teaching and Romanian values. Our Romanian forefathers passed many things on to us, and our Orthodox faith is the most precious and everlasting. But remember, they are OUR forefathers, not yours. This is OUR inheritance we share with you, and not the other way around. Please remember this when you criticize that which you found here. Try to understand that BOR abandoned us a long time ago and continues to taunt us with the existence of such Communist creations as the present day ROAA. Why doesn’t the ROAA join us in the OCA? The OCA has been our Mother in America for forty years and is the only Mother Church many of us have ever had.

    Our Diocese in the OCA has 2 Hierarchs. We probably do need another auxiliary Bishop, an English-speaking one to handle the growing number of English-speaking parishes in our Diocese. That unity under BOR somehow strengthens us in America is repeated often but never credibly explained, as you do yet again. God’s church demands us to be vigilant, and when something makes no sense to us we have the obligation to demand an explanation. Protecting what was passed on to us is also an obligation and the “Guardians of the Vatra” are doing just that. We have no personal agenda in this discussion other than the good of the church. What else could our involvement be? We give of our time, effort and money, and receive nothing in return, other than having the satisfaction of knowing we are protecting our church. We are all proud of our heritage, but BOR is our past. Our future is here and by definition, that means in the American Orthodox Church – the OCA. Any group who wants to disrupt our status quo as a Diocese in the OCA must convince the rest of us of why this should be done. A continuous repetition of ethnocentric arguments doesn’t cut it. Remember, the OCA is our home, our Mother.

    Va rugam, daca nu va convine in Episcopia noastra, care face parte din OCA, de ce nu va duceti la ROAA, care apartine BOR-ului? Biserica noastra Americana este tanara, dar are elemente sanatoase si un viitor sclipitor in aceasta noua lume. Avem nevoie de sprijin din partea bisericilor ortodoxe din lumea veche, si nu de altceva. Turma noastra este de acum inainte, America. BOR reprezinta trecutul nostru si OCA viitorul aici. Destul!


  32. Anonymous Says:

    It seems to me mr. Administrator, you only post what you want. If thats the case, you are not letting both sides of the story to be heard.

    (“Unirea se va face. Dar ai grija. Cand se va face vei ramane pe strada!” Nota Administratorului: Am lasat aceasta pe site numai ca sa demonstrez ce trebuie editat in articole si comentariile care apar aici.)


  33. Administrator Says:

    Dear “Anonymous” and “Where’s the Balance”. Let me first say that my initial response to Where’s the Balance” should have been more explanatory. On this website, we try to present an issue-focused debate and we delete, omit, edit and otherwise clean up what we consider to be derogatory and unfair. As well, we do not allow personal insults, threats and unbecoming language on this site, either in an article or a comment. (Also, sometimes the idea presented is straight repetition, adding nothing new to the debate.) Therefore, please understand that it is for these reasons that we do not always “publish all the comments in full”. Given the above, we do not leave out an argument because it contradicts any personal view. If you think we have, please advise and we will rectify the situation.

    If anything, we are continuously prodding pro-unity under BOR supporters to come up with arguments for their “revolutionary” position, arguments that are Orthodox and American. To date, this website has received only ethnocentric arguments in favour of this Unity under BOR. If there are other arguments please present them so that we might discuss them in an open debate style forum, leaving insults and derogatory remarks outside the debate. Our poor church deserves at least this level of respect when we debate her future here in North America.

    As the November 6, 2009 posting above from “Mihai”, someone who is clearly not an admirer, states about this website: “All the comments [on this site] are wonderful. They all express different points of views, for and against unification….” Cherry-picking? Well maybe a little here, but coming from Mihai, well that ain’t so bad now is it?


  34. Mihai Says:

    1. No, our unifying with the BOR would not be against orthodox ecclesiology and the canons. On the contrary, it would be canonical, unifying with a church (BOR) which is recognized by all of the Orthodox churches of the world, including Constantinopol. We would no longer be under OCA which is not recognized not even by half of the worlds Orthodox churches. So sorry sir. I think you are the one who lost the train - the “Orthodox train.”

    2. As of right now, we are Romanian Orthodox, under the “Romanian Orthodox Episcopate of America” not the “Romanian-American Orthodox Episcopate of America.” When our name should change, then that is a different story. But for now, 98% of the priests serving this Episcopate are Romanian not Romanian-American and certainly not American. And so if you forsee your childrens kids being simply American well sir, that is your personal problem not the episcopates problem. Because as it is right now most of this generation’s kids (not all but most)that is the American-Romanian generation, do not even come to church. Din contra most of this generation’s children marry people who are not even orthodox. So by the time we get to the “American” children you speak of they can not even be considered Orthodox. If you say our children will later only consider themselves American, then there should also be a growth in American priests! This doesn’t seem to be happening or will happen! By unifying with BOR we are preserving our Romanian identity in the church and in turn, in the hearts of our children. By staying with the OCA we letting this identity perish, and you even admit it!. Well,this is what we don’t want and what it seems - you want! And by the way our largest parishes in the U.S for example, Detroit, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Miami, Arizona, are Romanian - Not American-Romanian, and certanly not American.

    3. You ask that: daca nu imi convine aceasta episcopia ROEA, sa merg la ROAA. This just shows/proves the fact that you are not concerned with unifying Romanian Orthodox on this continent but with continuing the way we are. And so i say this sir! Yes, daca esti atat de arrogant, uite, mergem la ROAA, dar ne vrem si preotii, si vor venii si parohiile romane. Si sa ramai dumneata cu ce numesti tu American, cu parhohiile ce mai raman. Vedeti ca vine trenul protestant!


  35. Administrator Says:

    1. When one repeats the same misinformation over and over again maybe one does begin to believe it is true themselves. I presume this is the case since the “Circular Logic” used continues to offer no valid argument for unifying under BOR. Orthodox Canons clearly state that the church is local and not ethnic; meaning that here in America the local church is the OCA of which we are a part, not BOR which is a foreign church here, but a local one there in Romania. Simple! Again, why must we repeat and defend the fact that the OCA is in canonical communion with ALL canonical Orthodox Churches, otherwise our Hierarchs and clergy could not concelebrate with the others, and clearly they do so regularly? It is true that the OCA autocephaly is accepted by some Churches, while others see us as an Autonomous Metropolitanate, and still others have not taken an official position yet, 40 years later. But they all concelebrate with us. Why? Because the OCA is a canonical church, otherwise they would not serve with our Hierarchs and clerics. We also lead the Orthodox Unity train here in America. So, what is the reason for incorrectly repeating the misinformation? Does anyone believe that this may somehow sound credible and convincing? Anyone can see that our Hierarchs and clerics regularly serve the Holy Liturgy with ALL other canonical Orthodox Hierarchs and clerics; and many of us know that this is the acid-test of one’s canonicity in Orthodoxy. Please accept this and stop spreading missinformation. Those who choose to debate here should do so based on correct facts and not incorrect insinuations, particularly after these have been repeatedly pointed out. This will not move the debate ahead.

    2. As mentioned in our November 7, 2009 response to your November 6, 2009 comment on “Circular Logic”, it is clear that: “our name reflects our heritage and the large influx of immigrants from Romania after 1990. Time will handle names. Remember, the ROEA is part of the OCA, the Orthodox Church in America, of which we have been a Diocese for 40 years.” As also previously mentioned in that same response: “… within a couple of generations your children will no longer even speak Romanian, and they will consider themselves to be American, whether you like it or not, and many of us have had parents-grandparents who did not – we know this as fact. If you want these children to remain Orthodox then the church must be adapted to their needs and not your own. So, the past is BOR and the future is OCA.” You correctly say that many of our children do not attend church. Do you not think that one of the reasons for not having kept them might be that there is too much Romanian and not enough American language and culture in THEIR church and church community experience? Maybe we have to better adapt to their needs, rather than attempting to recreate a little Romania here in Detroit or New York for ourselves. This has been attempted many times before you suggested it, and this has failed every time. Our history, and we, are living proof of that. No, we must improve our approach, and not go backwards in time. The future cannot be a Romanian Church. That approach has already failed many times over. The future can only be an American church for our children. Our history in North America sadly proves this point. Some of us are attempting to learn from past mistakes, unlike those who want to keep on repeating the same mistakes. We believe that dragging us back into the BOR past would be a major mistake. We must all understand that our grandchildren’s lives here will not be as little Romanians living in America. Look around please. We have too many examples that prove this point, and repeating nostalgic wishes cannot make them come true. In a few generations our children WILL lose their Romanianism as generations before them have as well. Too many from those generations also lost their faith in the process because Romanianism and Orthodoxy were tied too closely together, and when the first one was lost (as is inevitable here) the second one also was lost. We want to change that. We want them to remain Orthodox even as they become truly integrated Americans. This is why our Episcopate must remain in the OCA, otherwise we will have only empty Romanian churches. Do not say this won’t happen. We were here and lived through it all the way into the late 1980’s. As well, your statements about our parishes are exaggerated, to say the least. The Detroit and Dearborn Cathedrals, the seats of our two Hierarchs, have parish priests who are American born. Let’s not start this ridiculous game of counting which parishes have more or less Romanian use or English use, more American born or a more recent immigrant base. In time ALL will be subject to the same rule we have seen in the past, whereby our children become Americanized to the point they lose the Romanian language and in the process it is up to us, their parents, to make sure they do not also lose our ancestral faith, the most precious gift our ancestors left us. For this reason we must adapt the church here to our childrens’ needs and not our own, and thus stay with the American church, our only hope for the future.

    3. The unity we would like in North America is the unity of the ROAA with us in the OCA because we consider this to represent the only valid religious future for our children. If the ROAA continues to be part of BOR we will of course be saddened. But will have no choice but to continue our separate paths since leaving the OCA would be wrong canonically, and wrong for our children. If however, there are those who have a different viewpoint they can of course always go under that ROAA-BOR entity. No one stops them and if they feel more comfortable there, maybe that is the Diocese for them. In America we do have choices and most of us have already chosen the ROEA-OCA combination. This is also true for the majority of faithful and clergy arriving here even after 1989. So, your threats of leaving the ROEA with your Romanian priests if we do not succumb to BOR rule, sound rather hollow, don’t they? Unhappily, when arguments are lacking some start threatening. Now that sounds like a blast from a corrupt past! Please, let’s not do this here. Our church deserves better. Enough – Destul!


  36. Where’s the Balance Says:

    Mr Administrator: Please post on this site ALL the comments from ocanews.org (in full) concerning Mr Nemoianu’s article. Thank you.


  37. Administrator Says:

    ”Where’s the Balance”, regarding your request, please refer to our November 11, 2009 response to you and “Anonymous”. If you want to read “ALL the comments from ocanews.org (in full) concerning Mr. Nemoianu’s article” or anything else posted there, then please go to that site and read it ALL.


  38. Mihai Says:

    Dumnule Administrator … daca vreti cu OCA, nu aveti de cat sa ramaneti. Dar majoritatea dintre noi, o sa ne unim cu Biserica noastra mama BOR. Voi minoritatea, nu aveti de cat sa ramaneti cu OCA. Toate Parohiile Romanesti (asta inseamna 90 la suta din episcopie) vor unirea cu BOR. Nu ne vor mai conduce pe noi OCA. Dumneata si restul care nu vrea, atunci sa ramana cu rusii, cu OCA, doar este tara libera.

    Iara tot ce am scris mai sus sunt niste adevaruri care nu vreti sa le acceptati. Dar faptele vorbesc. Si repet, sa ne uitam in biserici; cati romani sunt si cati americani sunt. Cati dintre acesti laici se considera americani si cati se considera romani! Care sunt cele mai mari parohii din America,romanesti sau americane? Iara vreau sa spun ca limba liturgica in aceste “cele mai mari parohii” este limba romana!

    Asa ca domnule administrator, stati cu OCA si incercati sa conduceti pe alta majoritate, ca cu noi romanii vi sa terminat. Vrem unirea cu biserica noastra mama si cu natiunea noastra, BOR!


  39. Administrator Says:

    Mihai, ar fi de folos daca ai discuta in mod civilizat, normal si deschis. Propaganda nu este acceptabila aici.
    1) Cine stie ce ne rezerva viitorul si cine este o majoritate?
    2)Cum puteti spune ce vor 90% din parohiile Epicopiei fara sa fie nici un vot?
    3) De cand ne-a condus OCA-ul undeva unde nu am vrut?
    4) De ce mai repeti propaganda venita din Bucuresti cu rusii, etc. N-ai inteles? Mitropolitul OCA-ului este un convertit de origine Americana, nascut aici, cum sunt aproape toti Episcopii din OCA! Rusi? Fii serios!


  40. Viorel Says:

    Cati roman si cati American sunt in Bisericile noastre depinde foarte mult de oras, de nivelul imigratiei locale, si mai important, depinde de talentul si daruinta preotului. Daca preotul venit din Romania vrea numai romaneste, vrea sa fie comod, si raspunzand numai la nevoile primei generatiei de immigranti, atunci va pierde generatiile mai tinere, fiindca ei, si desigur copii lor, nu vor mai vorbi aceasta limba. Sa vede ca nu va convine acest adevar dar, Mihai, noi stim despre ce vorbim fiindca noi suntem acei stra-nepoti care crez ca poti s-ai ti in bazinul romanesc aici, in America, dar foarte putin dintre noi mai vorbim limba lui Eminescu. In schimb avem o sansa sa pastram ortodoxia noastra pentru generatiile urmatoare daca suntem gata sa facem sacrificii pentru ei, adaptand biserica noastra mai mult la nevoile lor decat la ale noastre. Vreti cu BOR? Atunci nimeni nu va opreste sa mergeti la ROAA, dar lasati-ne pe noi din OCA-ROEA in pace! Se va vedea in 60 de ani cine a avut dreptate!


  41. Anonymous Says:

    Sa se puna la vot in fiecare parohie, la fiecare adunare generala - pro unire sau against unire.

    Sa vedem ce spun si ce vor oamenii, pentru ca la urma urmei asta conteaza. Daca majoritatea oameniilor, peste 85 la suta, vor unirea cu BOR, atunci nu se poate ca aceste parohii, votul majoritar, sa faca ce spun o mica minoritate din laicii acestei epscopii.


  42. Matei Says:

    Mihai, aici suntem de-acord suta la suta. “Sa se puna la vot in fiecare parohie, la fiecare adunare generala - pro unire sau contra unire.” … “Sa vedem ce spun si ce vor oamenii, pentru ca la urma urmei asta conteaza. Daca majoritatea oameniilor, peste 85 la suta, vor unirea cu BOR” … ATUNCI SA MERGEM MAI DEPARTE CERAND SA SE FACA TRATATIVELE BOR-OCA PENTRU A PUTEA CONTINUA IN ACEST SENS. DAR DACA NU AVETI 85% DIN VOT LA ADUNARILE PAROHIALE, ATUNCI OPRITIVA PENTRU TOTDEAUNA!


  43. Mihai Says:

    V-am mai spus. Copii Americani nu vin, in primul rand, la Biserica. Mai mult, se casatoresc cu altii care nu sunt ortodocsi, si de multe ori nici macar crestini! Asta este fapta in toata Episcopia. Ce viitor domnu administrator? Episcopia aceasta este existenta datorita Bisericiilor Romanesti si Romanii care fac parte din parohii. Ca daca ar fi sa ne lasam in nadejdea la americani si copii lor, nu am exista astazi. Fa bine si scuteste-ne de abureliile astea “pentru viitorul copiilor nostrii”, ca copii Americani in mare parte nici nu mai fac parte din parohiile lor, sau de nici alta parohie. Deocamdata toata episcopia este in majoritate compusa din peste 80 la suta romani; noi veniti din Romania. Cand, domnule administrator, numarul copiilor dumneavoastra, sau alti americani depaseste acest procent majoritar, atuncea mai vorbim. Deocamdata, nu este asa. It’s interesting because if we would take a survey and see how many of these people who … are … against uniting with BOR even go to church; we would be very saddened. Mr. Administrator, you talk about the future of our churches! Well if we were to depend on the American born we would have no future; that is, if we were to stay with OCA, or leave it, it would make no difference.

    Episcopia aceasta este tinuta in picioare de “romani” si “parohiile romanesti” si fapta este si din punct de vedere financiar. (This Episcopate is kept standing by “Romanians” and “Romanian parishes” and this is a fact from every aspect, including from the financial standpoint). Mr. Administrator, … this majority will win the vote. If you don’t like it then stay with the OCA.


  44. Administrator Says:

    Mihai, stim ca, copiii Americani ar trebui sa vina mai des la biserica si sa ramana ortodocsi. Este dorinta noastra. Dar sa se poate face asa ceva este necesar ca Biserica noastra sa devina Biserica lor. In loc de a oferi copiilor nostri ce ne place noua, adica limba Romana intr-un context cultural si administrativ romanesc, de ce nu le oferim o Biserica ortodoxa in limba lor, cu o cultura administrativa de aici, adica ce vor ei? Poate asa vor ramane ortodocsi. De ce vrei sa repeti greselile parintilor nostri? In 2-3 generatii acesti copii nu vor mai vorbi Romana, dar cum sa-i tinem ortodocsi? Iata motivul pentru a ramane cu OCA. In plus ar fi bine daca am accelera miscarea spre Biserica lor si sa fim noi mai putin insistenti sa facem cu Biserica ce ne convine noua. Discutia aceasta trebuie sa fie despre nevoile copiilor nostri in Biserica lor Ortodoxa Americana. Mai multa engleza, sock hop, local music festivals, Orthodox teen night, ski/beach outings, English choir singing, etc. Noi am putea sa ne mandrim ca am pastrat credinta ancestrala si am putut sa o adaptam la nevoile copiilor nostri. Mergand inapoi la BOR garanteaza ca copii nostri nu vor fi nici ortodocsi in viitor. Nu! BOR este trecutul si OCA viitorul. Este singura solutie pentru ei.

    Nenea Mihai, nu vorbi prin caciula. Aceste generatii care sunt aici din Tata in fiu, si care au cladit si sustin aceste Biserici pe continentul Nord American, au daruinta la Biserica in sangele lor. Noii veniti dupa 1990 cred ca Biserica aici este sustinuta de Stat ca si in Romania si deci, ei nu au acest obicei de a sustine Biserica din punct de vedere financiar. Exceptia sunt noii veniti care au ajuns in orase unde nu erau Romani din vechile generatii. Ei au inteles foarte repede ca aici nu este ca in Romania si au trebuit sa construiasca Biserici pe banul lor sau sa nu aiba Biserica deloc, sau numai una inchiriata de cand in cand. Chiar in aceste situatii, Parohiile mai vechi, cu cei din vechile generatii, au tot sprijinit financiar si pe aceste noi misiuni. Recunoasterea este floare rara …


  45. Mihai Says:

    Da, este adevarat, nu sunt toti ierarhii din OCA Rusi, sunt foarte multi CONVERTITI, care de multe ori,fara sa vrea, impun idei si principii Protestante in Ortodoxie. Da, este adevarat, apartinem de OCA, care o mare parte din ierarhi sunt convertiti, multi care daca le-am da un examen de tipic ortodox, ar cade din start! Da asa ca chestie, daca o luam asa, citeste canoanele Ortodoxiei si vezi acolo daca e voie ca un convertit sa ajunga ierahi. Vei vedea ca raspunsul este “nu”.

    Matei,se va pune la vot si te asigur, stai linistit, ca 85% la suta din lume va fi pentru unire. Dar te rog uitata-te in Roberts Rules of Order si citeste faptul ca: pentru ca o propunere sa fie aprobata iti trebuie half + 1, deci 51 la suta. Si sa zicem ca 70 la suta vor si 30 la suta nu. E correct ca 70 la suta sa stea cu ce vor 30 la suta? Nu cred. Da, va fi cel putin 85 la suta. Iara in martie, dupa adunarile generale, daca este votul de cel putin 85 la suta si situl acesta si restul siturilor de pe internet sa inceteze sa se mai afiseze.


  46. Matei Says:

    Nene Mihai, ce esti, Profesor de Teologie sau altceva? Cum indraznesti sa-i insulti pe convertiti? Dupa logica ta ce ne facem cu Saul/Pavel? Cu ce drept spui ca ierarhii nostri ar cadea la un examen de tipic ortodox? Mihai, OPRESTE-TE! Un convertit nu poate deveni Episcop? Din care caciula o scoti si pe asta; din cea ciobaneasca? Am inteles; ai diploma din Constanta!

    Nene, mai citeste si tu ROEA Constitution & By-Laws sa vezi ca nu ai dreptate. Doua treimi plus unu este minimum necesar pentru astfel de vot la Congres si in parohii, si nici nu se stie daca acel vot poate fi tinut! Avocatii, si nu tu si nici eu, vor decide la timpul cuvenit.


  47. Mihai Says:

    Viorel, va lasam in pace. Ne vom duce la ROAA unindu-ne cu BOR. Dar ma tem ca ve-ti ramane singuri. Tine minte, daca romanii pleaca si raman americanii-romani, si micsoreaza episcopia cu 85 la suta. Asa va fi. Banii cei mai multi contribuiti la episcopie vin de la parohiile cele mai mari, si anume, Los angeles, Chicago, Detroit, New York. Daca dumneata ceri ca acestea sa plece la ROAA, daca vor unirea, “si sa va lase in pace,” nu stiti ce ziceti. Mai bine muscati-va limba!


  48. Viorel Says:

    Mihai, n’ai grija, cei crescuti in aceste Biserici cladite de ei si de parintii lor stiu cum sa plateasca cheltuielile bisericii. Ei o fac de o viata. Ei nu dau din gura, ei dau din punga. Toate parohiile mai mari si mai vechi din Episcopie sunt sustinute de astfel de oameni. Amenintarile tale sunt fara folos si numai inraieste lumea impotriva unirii sub BOR.


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